Building relationships with Peter Shankman | On Top of PR podcast

- Hi, this is Jason Mudd with Axia Public Relations. And on this episode of On Top Of PR, we are joined by Peter Shankman, the founder of HARO and a serial entrepreneur, author, global keynote speaker, and just an all around great guy and somebody who has given back significantly to the PR profession and the business world. I'm thrilled to have Peter on the show, and I know you will enjoy listening in on this episode.

 

- [Narrator] Welcome to On Top Of PR with Jason Mudd presented by ReviewMaxer.

 

- Welcome to the next episode of On Top Of PR, I'm your host, Jason Mudd. And I'm joined by the Peter Shankman. Peter, welcome to the show.

 

- Thanks Jason, good to be here.

 

- We're glad you're here too. So Peter we first connected years ago when you were launching and enjoying a lot of success from a HARO, Help A Reporter Out, that was and remains a great tool for PR practitioners and those who are not in the PR space to connect with journalists who are seeking sources. Prior to that you had success running an agency. Peter, that agency was called Geek Factory. Is that right?

 

- Correct.

 

- Yeah, yeah. And around that time, I guess you started authoring some books and I picked up what I think was your first book, "Can We Do That?" Is that the right title of it?

 

- That is correct, yeah.

 

- Yeah, and that was a great read. I really enjoyed getting my hands on that and passing it around the office and sharing that with others. So thank you for agreeing to be on the show and I just would love to share some of your stories of best practices in public relations, how you have found success and also ultimately the many ways that you are giving back and how our audience might be able to connect with you and follow you on the various platforms that you are very active in, Peter.

 

- Sure, I mean, I can tell you I still do a lot and we're living in the dystopian end of days right now, but it is interesting times. But yeah, I'm still very active. I'm still a corporate keynote speaker. I've been doing a lot. I've moved entirely virtual. We used to take four days to get to Asia, give a speech, come back from Asia, now it takes 45 minutes. So it's certainly a new world, but there's a need more than ever for sound communication. There's a need for best practices in all things. From hiring to communication to customer experience now. And I find the companies are reaching out to me now more than ever actually. It's strange, I'm busier than I've ever been. Yet when you take travel out of the equation, I still have a lot of downtime, so it's a nice mix, I guess.

 

- I find it refreshing. I don't travel nearly as much as you do, but it is nice. I think you and I both recently flew sometime in June-ish and it had been a while. And I thought that was interesting, well, especially with less crowds at the airport, if that makes sense.

 

- It's been nice to take a break. I, however, miss it terribly. All of my writing, all of my books, everything I do is done on planes. And to not be flying is very difficult. And add that to being sort of trapped in New York City where you try to avoid going out as much as possible in the world we're currently in. So it's been difficult, I won't lie.

 

- It's probably difficult to live in the city that never sleeps and never go out.

 

- Well they say that in New York City, you pay a ridiculously high mortgage for what's outside your apartment. You don't pay for what's inside your apartment. Not that I care.

 

- Of course.

 

- Unfortunately we're not allowed to use anything that's outside. So that definitely makes it difficult, no question about it.

 

- Absolutely. Well, Peter, you opened the door, so I'm gonna walk right in. And that would be a first of all, you have a very helpful newsletter that you send out and it's full of great content and challenging your audience and making the readers not only learn, but also rethink many of their assumptions. And so I really enjoy getting that from you. How does somebody go about getting on that email?

 

- Yeah, I mean, I head over to shankman.com and there'll be a nice little pop up. Otherwise you can go to shankman.com/emails. Same thing. But yeah, my newsletter is about 60,000 strong, I believe. And you have to understand having an audience is a privilege, not a right. And so when I am fortunate enough to get someone to join me, it is imperative that I give them content that they're expecting that they want, that helps them, that is useful. I think that way too many people look at having a newsletter along the lines of oh, well, I got these people, listen to me. I can say whatever I want, and it doesn't really work like that. And I've spent, especially running HARO, and when I was running HARO I was sending out close to a million emails a day, with a 79% open rate right on every single email.

 

- It's incredible.

 

- And so the key is give your audience content they want that helps them and they'll do it for you.

 

- Right, yeah. So I know your passion is related to one of your most recent books and your own podcast. Talk to us a little bit about that.

 

- So I have massive ADHD. I was diagnosed as an adult. When I was a kid in New York growing up, it was called sit down you're disrupting the class disease. And so I realized that there had to be something different about my brain, but that was not only that get me into trouble my whole life, it was also a key to success. And over time I realized that was what came to be called ADHD, I couldn't be the only one. There had to be other people who were dealing with the same thing. And so a little informal research led me to find out that not only were there a lot of people with ADHD, but surprisingly high number of them were successful entrepreneurs. And so that led to a podcast called "Faster Than Normal" and then a book of the same name, a bestselling book of the same name. On the podcast we've had everyone from Seth Goden at Tony Robbins, Keith Crotch of DocuSign, Dave Newman of Jet Blue, who else, the band Shine Down, we've had PhDs, we've had authors, we've had politicians, professional sports players, all of whom share this commonality of having a neurodiverse brain. And some of the research I've done has led to the fact that to discover that in the next 10 years, close to 20 to 25% of the workforce is gonna be neurodiverse. That's add ADHD, autism, spectrum executive function, you name it. And so dyslexia falls under that. And so if you are an employer, you have to start thinking about how to hire and retain these brilliant minds. If you are a business you have to start thinking about, not only how to hire and retain, but how to sell to an audience that is neurodiverse as well. I worked with a major fast food chain last year to help redesign their menu. Because you walked in to the restaurant and you looked up and there's 130 items on the menu with flashing lights and digital commercials, and that's enough for me to blow my brains out. And so I'm like, no, this can't be. If you walk into an In-N-Out Burger, it's hamburger, cheeseburger, fries, shake, that's it. And so simplicity in this case can rule. So I do a lot with that, teaching companies how to understand and address neurodiversity. I've worked with companies big and small. Adobe, I've worked with airlines, things like that. And so the key really is sort of understanding both your audience from a hiring perspective, as well as from a selling point.

 

- Yeah, yeah. So what would be some advice you might give to say corporate marketing departments where maybe the leader or one of the supervisors in the department is struggling because they sense they have an employee that they just are struggling to manage, supervise, direct and guide. Is autonomy a good solution to give that person?

 

- Autonomy is a good solution when it's layered on deadlines. So in other words, if you tell me that I have a project due on Thursday at 3:00 p.m., you need it by Thursday 3:00 p.m. if not earlier. But if you tell me, hey, get me this, as soon as you can, you're never gonna get it. Because it'll become the most important thing until the next project I'm given, then that becomes the most important thing, and so on and so on. So one of the keys to managing is deadlines. Is clear cut deadlines that are right in front of the person. My assistant, I don't have write access to my calendar. She took that away from me probably over 10 years ago, because I think the breaking point for her was I scheduled two dinners on the same night on separate continents. And she's just like, yeah, we're done here. And so to save her sanity and me she controls my calendar now. And so if I wanna do something, I email her. When people are neurodiverse, they focus on what they're good at and they outsource as much as possible what they're bad at. So there's a reason I don't do my own lawyering. There's a reason I don't cut my own hair. Ironically I do cut my hair now. But I do the things that I'm good at and I pay other people to do the things that I'm not. And that sort of keeps my life in a symbiotic balance.

 

- Yeah, I love it. Allegedly that's what Bill Gates says, is do what you do best and outsource the rest.

 

- No question about it. You have to. I know, especially when I consider how much my time is worth, right? How much do I charge for a one hour keynote? It's a lot of money. Do I waste an hour cleaning my own apartment, or do I hire someone to do it so I can do other things? And by the way, they're gonna do it much better than I am anyway.

 

- That's absolutely right. I agree. So going back to what you said about deadlines, I think it's just important as communication, right? If we're communicating well, we've shared a deadline, we've shared a priority, we've set some expectations, and I think that's where we as leaders can get lazy because we think everybody can read our mind. And I've definitely learned from that. One of our previous guests, a great episode, was Dolly Penland and she does personality assessments and coaches how to manage the personality types and things like that. And one of the best things she taught me, Peter, was I had this employee who just thought that everything was laissez Faire. And so we would say, and you the drill, we would pitch media, we would send out a news release and she'd hear nothing. And she'd go, well, when they're ready, they'll contact us and tell us they're ready to cover it. And I'm like, no, no, you don't understand. The event is still Friday regardless of what happens, right? And so Dolly taught me that what we have to do is tell her, this is what completion and success look like. Not just check a box I sent something. Completion and success looks like pick up from this outlet or that outlet or this industry trade interviews, et cetera. And that was a great lesson for me.

 

- Well, that's always really been the key. If you define the terms, if you define the terms in terms of what you should be doing, what you should expect, I'm never gonna fire anyone for making a mistake. But I'll fire you if you don't ask. Ask me as many times as you need to get it perfect. Once you're perfect, I expect it perfect every single time. So I'll never get angry at someone 'cause they didn't know the answer, but don't tell me that you'll find the answer and then don't do it. Find the answer, know what we're talking about, go from there.

 

- Yeah, cool. So Peter, with all the years that you have been in the public relations field, you have certainly shared some great tips. I've been on some teleseminars and webinars you've done with news reporters. What do you see that either corporate marketers or PR people, what are common mistakes you see them making when they're approaching the news media?

 

- I think the first thing you have to realize is this story is not about you. Way too many people think the story is about them, and it's never about you. It's always about making the reporter's life easier. Any story you do has to be making reporter's life easier. If you can do that, you're gonna get placed whatever you wanna get placed. Also understand that 99% of what you believe to be news may very well be you news, but not to you. I'm sorry, may well be news to you and no one else. And so the key really is what can you create that people think is worthwhile not just to you. So for me, I think that the best rule I ever learned was make your story about an industry. Don't make your story about one company or one thing in particular. Make it as much as possible about an industry. And if you can do that, then you have the ability to get the reporter interested because then it becomes a bigger story. It's not something boring, it's not something whatever, It's something that they want to use, that they can craft into a bigger pitch. And I found the best way to do that really is to involve your competitors. Reach out to your competitors and ask them, hey, is this a trend? And if so offer it to them. If you're the one who brought the story to them, they'll honor you with the first one. You don't necessarily need to worry about getting schooled in it, but find a trend, get two or three confirmation, from two or three different companies that you work with, that work in your industry and pitch that.

 

- One of my favorite lines is when's the last time you went to a movie to see a movie that was about a legal entity or a building, It's the people that are doing the work, people that are overcoming the adversity. Typically somebody has a problem and a great storytelling, right?

 

- And a lot of it is just being brilliant at the basics.

 

- I like that.

 

- And it's so funny 'cause being brilliant at the basics is so, I don't need you to be awesome. I don't need you to be amazing. I don't need you to walk on water. I need you to suck slightly less than everyone else. And the bar is so unbelievably low right now. That's not really that hard. I look at my favorite joke, three guys are running out in the middle of the woods in a trail run and they see a bear and they freak out. And the bear sees them and he raises hands. The first one says, Oh my God, we're dying. And the second one leans down and takes up his running shoes. The person says you can't outrun a bear, and he says, nice, I need to outrun you.

 

- That's right, yeah, that's a good one.

 

- That's really all it comes down to. Just need to outrun you.

 

- Yeah, that's very good. Very good. Peter you've done a good job of building relationships with the media. I know you get called on for interviews with some frequency. I remember reading and either one of your books or many of the content that you've prepared over the years. Tell our audience about how you made a name for yourself just by simply reaching out to media and offering to be helpful.

 

- Well, I mean, that's how I started. The concept of talking to reporters when I had nothing to sell them, but offering something to them. Seeing how I could help them create what are you working on? I know people. I had tons and tons and tons of resources and connections. I know so many people. How can I help turn those people into sources that you might need? And that led to Help A Reporter Out, because reporters would start calling me and they'd be, hey, I'm doing a story on whatever. I heard you know people and it would take me like nine hours to find someone, but I'd get it. And there's gotta be a better way to do this. And that led to the creation of Help A Reporter Out.

 

- Yeah, absolutely. And we get those calls at our agency all the time. And it's one of those things you wanna pay it forward, but at the same time, how many hours or an hour or so do you wanna spend. And then of course you get somebody on the phone and they're like, okay, but what's this gonna cost me? Or why do I need to do this? And it's like, that's one on one stuff. So you have to spend some time doing that as well. At least that's been our experience.

 

- No question about it.

 

- Yeah, yeah. And then let's see you mentioned earlier, first of all, what you mentioned there was you know a lot of people. And I think that goes back to, as we talked about earlier, when you realize you were quote unquote different than everybody else, right? I mean, you've got a ton of contacts, you get more stuff done than everybody else does, and we were talking earlier about how some might find that difficult to manage, but I think if you embrace that, whether it's you individually or whether it's somebody on your team and you leverage those capabilities and you make life easy for them to succeed, then you've really got a win win. So how do you stay motivated and productive at such a high level, Peter?

 

- I think for me, one of the things is understanding how my brain works and understanding what I need to function. So for me, it's a lot about exercise. I wake up usually around 3:45 to 4:00 a.m. And I am on my Peloton bike or on my treadmill or out for a run or lifting or whatever, something pretty much six days a week, if I can. The whole reason I haven't gained any weight during lockdown is because I exercise every day. I haven't lost any weight 'cause I'm working three inches from my fridge, but I haven't gained any weight. So I consider that a win. But it's not so much for the weight. I do it because the dopamine release that I get from exercise kicks me into gear for the entire day. If I don't exercise, I don't have that could have a day. And I've had my my daughter seven years old, she says daddy, were you on the bike today? No. You don't look happy. So the key really is to understand how your brain works and give yourself the tools to handle the setbacks that you'll have. Nothing's gonna be perfect. You're not gonna win every single time. But how you deal with that rejection, what you learn from it can be a great source for the next time. And I've learned that over time. For every keynote I get, I'm sure there's a bigger one that I wanted to get, or whatever the case may be. And what can I learn to improve that? And as long as I learn from something, I don't really consider it a loss. I can learn from something I don't consider it a loss.

 

- We learn more from failure than we do success.

 

- No question about it.

 

- In fact, you reminded me of a video that you shot a year or two ago, and I guess you didn't get a keynote, you knew the person who got it, you felt very much so like you were more qualified than they were and you hit the bike as I recall, and you hit it hard. And you know what, that video candidly was inspiring to me because we've all been there. We've all faced rejection. And you could tell you were passionate about it and you were upset about it, but you used that as fuel after you got on the bike, or you used it as fuel to get on the bike. And then after you got on the bike, you could tell your mindset had shifted and that was very cool. So speaking of earlier you mentioned you are most productive on a flight or in flight. Share some of that advice. I know you've done that in the past, but with our audience I'm guessing when life is normal, there's more travel going on. These folks are traveling and they're visiting multiple locations and conferences and trade shows and corporate meetings. How do you stay productive on a flight? So, for me, it's about taking the laptop, taking a good quality pair of headphones, spend money on a good pair of headphones and not eating crap. So the food you have on planes on long flights is designed to keep you loggy and it's double the carbs and double the fats. It's because food at altitude doesn't taste as good as food on the ground. So they double the fat, they double the carbs to make you feel full and content and put you to sleep. So I tend to not eat food on a plane if I can avoid it. Instead, I will bring some protein with me, I'll bring some beef jerky, some nuts seeds, things like that. And for me, it's about getting on the plane, not drinking. I don't drink. I very rarely drink anymore anyway. So I was drinking water, and lots and lots of water and focusing entirely on that. They have wifi on planes now, but I fly United so it doesn't really matter 'cause it's terrible so I don't really use it. For me, it's about getting on the plane, focusing on opening my laptop. I use, you can use pages, you can use whatever you want. But open a blank sheet and just start writing. And it doesn't have to be perfect. Hemingway said, write drunk, edit sober, just write. Get stuff on the page. And I've written, my record I think it was 37,000 words on a trip from New York to Tokyo. And you're reminding me, and I think I've told this story before, but isn't that how you wrote one or more of your books as booked flight... What's that?

 

- Well, Zombie Loyalists was written I'm on a plane when I didn't have a reason to be on a plane because I needed to get the book done. But all my books that are written on planes.

 

- Yeah, I love that idea because where else are you gonna go? You're either gonna make conversation with somebody and if you have the quality headphones, you can avoid that. And if that's your mission on the flight, then you do it. I think the way you told me the story was you flew there turned in a rough draft, hit the hotel, woke up the next day and you had revisions from your editor that you worked on on the flight back or something like that, right?

 

- No, I wrote chapters one through five on the flight out from New York to Tokyo, landed in Tokyo, went to the lounge, took a shower, had a cup of coffee, got back on the plane and wrote in the same plane, same seat, and wrote the, the second half of the book on the flight home. So I landed 37 hours after I left with a book.

 

- That is awesome, that's incredible. So many of my colleagues say that they're writing a book during COVID right now, and while they can't fly, I think that would be a great way to do it. So good for you.

 

- [Narrator] You're listening to on Top Of PR with your host, Jason Mudd. Jason is a trusted advisor to some of America's most admired and fastest growing brands. He is the managing partner at Axia Public Relations, a PR agency that guides news, social and web strategies for national companies. And now back to the show.

 

- Peter, you also did a book about customer service, which I think that's a "Zombie Loyalist" book. That is probably one of my favorites of the books that you've written. Talk a little bit about that and about how your career has transitioned from PR to a customer service keynote speaker and how you landed there. and what are some of the takeaways that marketing departments need to be thinking about their involvement in customer service?

 

- The customer experience, again, it's so bad that you don't need to be great. The simple act of a smile can go so far. Reach out to your audience, say hello, talk to them we have nothing to sell them. Don't reach out when you're trying to sell. I get a couple of hundred emails a day from corporate entities, and I can count on one hand the number that are actually useful. The majority of them are trying to sell me and it's such a waste. Reach out to me with good quality content and I'll be a lot happier. And chances are, I'll buy from you when I do have something to buy.

 

- Yeah, absolutely. And I think that goes right back to what you were saying earlier about media relations and working with journalists. Build the relationship first. Don't just come to them with your handout saying, help me. Find out how you can help them, find out what motivates them, do a little homework, a little research, little relationship building techniques

 

- A hundred percent. There's nothing wrong with just talking. Your audience will tell you exactly how they like to get their information if you let them.

 

- Yeah, that's good, that's good. Peter, you mentioned earlier, you're still speaking, you're still doing more virtual speaking engagements and things like that. What are some of your current keynote topics?

 

- So I talk about the customer economy, it's the next 50 years of the economy, when we remember the customer experience. I talk about neurodiversity. I talk about customer experience in the travel and tourism sectors as well. So between the three of those, keeps me pretty busy.

 

- Yeah, and when you're not working, Peter, you keep pretty busy also. You love to be fit, you love to skydive and you're a big NASA fan. What else do you do?

 

- Lately it's been with my daughter. So lately I've been just having a blast with her. I'm a single dad. So if I'm not on my Peloton bike or working lately, I've pretty much been jumping. I'm not jumping out of planes, I've pretty much been hanging out with her.

 

- So speaking of how old do you have to be to skydive?

 

- 18 is usually the consensus.

 

- Yeah, and so do you think your daughter will take--

 

- She's already saying she wants to. Her mom doesn't necessarily agree with her, but at 18 she can do what she wants I guess.

 

- There you go, that's right. I've got a 17 year old who keeps reminding me that she'll be 18 soon and she can do whatever she wants.

 

- Very true.

 

- Well, I'll tell you it's on my bucket list to skydive. I've never done it obviously. But I have an incredible fear of heights, but when I get on something like a rollercoaster otherwise, I love it, I'm thrilled. It's just that first step, right?

 

- Well, nice thing about skydiving is that you're so high that the fear of heights doesn't really kick in. Fear of heights kicks in when you're on the 25th storey of a building and you look down and you can make out, okay, that's a car, that's a tree. If I impact that that's gonna hurt. At 13,000 feet, you're like get at the dark down there and it's blue up there and that's pretty much all you got. So the fear of Heights doesn't really enter into it. I think you should try it. You'll be okay.

 

- I wanna try it, but my palms are already getting sweaty just thinking about it. So I've got some work to do there. But I can tell you it's one of those things. Once I do it, I think I'll get the itch and love to do it. And plus, it's one of those things that I believe in the expression, what you fear most is what you most need to do. And so I think if I conquered that, I would be pretty outstanding. So, Peter, what gives you butterflies and sweaty palms? What are you afraid of?

 

- That's a good question. I'll never cave dive, that much is for sure. I'll never scuba dive through a cave. I think that's insanity. But I've seen videos of these people squeezing themselves through caves and having to take off their air and carry it. No, thank you, I'm good. But I think that my greatest fear is missing out on an opportunity because I was afraid to take the risk.

 

- Yeah, sure, absolutely.

 

- I enjoy very much taking as many risks as I can, that are calculated risks. And that's a big difference. I know that if I walk in the room, I live on the 56th floor and I know that if I opened my window and crawled outside and held on by my fingertips, that's not a calculated risk. That's stupid. The key is understanding where that risk is and taking a calculated risk. When I skydive I've done my homework. I've done my training. I know what my gear can do. I know how to do it. So that's an entirely different world.

 

- Do you have any interest in, and I don't know the terminology, you definitely would, of where people jump off of buildings?

 

- BASE Jumping, yeah. Now I have really no need. I mean, I enjoy the free-fall aspect. I love being in free fall. I love the minute and a half that I'm floating. I don't need to make that 13 seconds not in my parachute.

 

- And then what's the other thing--

 

- I think I'm the world's most boring skydiver.

 

- What's the other thing with the suit that they put on that gives you the wings?

 

- Wing suiting, yeah. That's fun too. I've never done wing suiting. I've ridden a wing suit. So I got on a wing suiters back, we jumped out of the plane together and I sort of wrote him halfway down. So that was cool.

 

- Right, oh, that's cool. so I mentioned bucket list earlier. What's on your bucket list, Peter?

 

- Getting back in the air to travel I definitely want. I mean, there's so many places I'm supposed to be this year, that I'm very fortunate that towards the end of last year, I was able to go to the Maldives and Abu Dhabi. I was invited to both places, one for Formula 1 and another for a launch of a major hotel. So that was an incredible experience. But yeah, I've visited about 46 countries. So I have about a hundred and something more countries to go. In a perfect world I'd like to set foot in every country.

 

- A little more local. Have you been to all 50 States?

 

- I have.

 

- Okay. And by the way, kudos to you. I know each year you give away some airline miles to help people be reunited with their loved ones during the holidays, and that's very cool of you. If you were going on vacation, what's the destination you would wanna go to. I mean, the Maldives was stunning. I will go back to Dubai in a heartbeat. I'm looking at potentially purchasing property there. Yeah, I'm a fan of anywhere where I can find something new and learn. I've skydived in Dubai, I've skydived in Barcelona. Yeah I just like having fun.

 

- Is there a place that you would get a keynote invite to, that you would drag your feet to have to go to?

 

- No. No, I'm still looking for that customer experience keynote in North Korea. So we'll see what I can do.

 

- Awesome. Peter, this has been fun. Thank you for sharing and thank you for how you give back to the community. You are always soliciting ways that you can give back. And I know for a fact from experience that you make good on those. So thank you for sharing today.

 

- Pleasure was mine. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

 

- And if our audience wants to connect with you, how do they find you on the internet? I'm @petershankman on all of the socials, and my email is petershankman.com, I welcome email and my website is either shankman.com, shankmines.com, is my mastermind group and then Faster Than Normal is the podcast.

 

- Absolutely. So tune into that podcast and connect with Peter. He's always got something interesting to say, and he doesn't hide it. He tells you exactly how it is and how he feels. And that's always entertaining and amusing. Peter, closing question. Are you working on a new book?

 

- I'm always working on something. I have a couple of ideas in the hopper. Yeah, like I said, when you're used to having a 45 minute speech take four hours to give, and all of a sudden it takes 45 minutes, you get a lot of extra time in your hands. So yeah, I'm doing a lot of writing.

 

- Good for you, man. Hey, keep up the good work. Thanks again and be well, my friend.

 

- All right, take care.

 

- Thanks, bye.

 

- [Narrator] This has been on top of PR with Jason Mudd presented by ReviewMaxer.