Navigating PR and communications hiring with Brooke Kruger

On Top of PR with Jason Mudd podcast: Getting more media coverage by making journalists’ lives easier with Muck Rack’s Linda Zebian

In this episode, Linda Zebian joins host Jason Mudd to discuss the challenges journalists face in maintaining work-life balance and how PR professionals can better support them. She shares industry insights from Muck Rack, explores newsroom pressures, and offers strategies for improving media relations.

Tune in to learn more!

Our guest

Linda Zebian is the senior director of communications at Muck Rack. She leads internal and external communications strategies across the enterprise. Her work spans across messaging, issues management, media relations, social media, and employee communications. As Muck Rack’s first-ever communications hire, Linda brought extensive experience from The New York Times, where she spent 10 years in various communications roles. She was named a “Woman to Watch” by PRWeek in 2024 and recognized for her leadership in Ragan Communications’ 2023 Top Women in PR list.

Watch the episode here:

Listen to the episode here:

5 things you’ll learn during the full episode:

The current state of work-life balance in journalism
Key stressors impacting media professionals today
How PR professionals can improve relationships with journalists
The evolving landscape of newsroom workflows
Strategies to support journalists’ well-being and efficiency

About Linda Zebian

Linda Zebian is the senior director of communications at Muck Rack, where she leads internal and external communications strategy, including messaging, issues management, media relations, social media, and employee communications. She joined Muck Rack in January 2022 as its first-ever director of communications, bringing a wealth of experience in media and corporate communications.

Before working at Muck Rack, Linda spent a decade at The New York Times, where she held various communications roles supporting growth, product, and technology teams. She played a key role in reinforcing the company’s innovation and financial success, driving subscription growth, and strengthening brand affinity. Prior to that, she worked at Consumers Union, managing media relations for Consumer Reports. She began her career as a reporter at Folio before transitioning into conference programming for Red 7 Media.

Linda was named a “Woman to Watch” by PRWeek in 2024 and a “Top Woman in PR for Leadership” by Ragan Communications in 2023. She frequently gives guest lectures at Boston University, NYU, and the University of Massachusetts Amherst, and she’s spoken at industry events hosted by The Society of Professional Journalists and NYU. She holds a B.A. in English from Fairfield University and lives in Massachusetts with her husband and two children.

Quotables

"The media industry has changed dramatically, and work-life balance is a bigger challenge than ever." — @LindaZebian
"Journalists are under immense pressure. PR pros can help by being mindful of their time and needs." — @LindaZebian
"The relationship between PR and journalists should be built on trust, efficiency, and respect." — @JasonMudd9
"Empathy in media relations goes a long way. Understanding journalists' workload can improve PR success." — @LindaZebian
"Being strategic and concise in your pitches will make journalists more receptive to your stories." — @JasonMudd9

Resources

Additional Episode Resources from Axia Public Relations:

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Our On Top of PR sponsors:

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Presenting sponsor: ReviewMaxer, the platform for monitoring, improving, and promoting online customer reviews

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Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:09

Jason

This episode is brought to you by Audible. Enjoy 30 days free of Audible Premium Plus by going to ontopofpr.com/audible.

00:00:09:09 - 00:00:19:08

Announcer

Welcome to On Top of PR with Jason Mudd, presented by ReviewMaxer.

00:00:19:08 - 00:00:27:15

Jason

Hello and welcome to On Top of PR. I'm your host, Jason Mudd with Axia Public Relations. Today we're joined by Linda Zebulun from Muck Rack. Linda, welcome to the show.

00:00:27:17 - 00:00:30:22

Linda

Thanks for having me, Jason. I'm excited to be here.

00:00:30:24 - 00:01:01:00

Jason

I'm glad to be here as well. For our audience, Linda is the senior director of communications at Muck Rack. She leads internal and external communication strategies, across the enterprise. Her work spans across messaging issues, management, media relations, social media, and employee communications. Oh, that's a lot good for you. As muck cracks first ever communications hire Linda brought extensive experience from The New York Times, where she spent ten years in various communication roles.

00:01:01:03 - 00:01:13:24

Jason

She was named a Woman to Watch by PR week in 2024, and recognized for leadership in Reagan Communications 2023 Top Women in PR list. Congratulations.

00:01:13:26 - 00:01:21:22

Linda

Oh, thank you so much. And, yeah, my team, they they love to nominate me though for those things without my knowledge.

00:01:21:24 - 00:01:45:22

Jason

What you know, guys say happy wife, happy life. So maybe, you know, happy, happy career, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Again. Thank you for being here. We're talking today about the state of work life balance in journalism and more specifically, how our audience of PR communication and marketing professionals might leverage this context and content, to help improve their media relations.

00:01:45:22 - 00:02:07:08

Jason

So, I want to get into that, but first, let's talk for a moment, about your experience working at The New York Times, one of the more prominent daily newspapers in the United States, with a, you know, worldwide reputation, as you work there in the unique capacity of communication. What did you learn from that experience?

00:02:07:08 - 00:02:17:24

Jason

What was some of the eye opening experiences? Basically, for my understanding, incredibly, wrong doing communications and public relations for, you know, a prominent daily newspaper.

00:02:17:27 - 00:02:44:00

Linda

Yeah. I mean, I think that I've had a really interesting career just working. So, ingrained in media and doing PR for a media company like The New York Times and having worked, previously, in, in magazines as well. It's kind of like you're on the inside, been working so closely with journalists and understanding kind of how the sausage is made.

00:02:44:02 - 00:03:07:20

Linda

And so I do I, I've had, I've had the honor and pleasure to, to kind of get a look behind the curtain about how newsrooms are run and, what it's like for journalists to be on deadline and, and understand, you know, how to craft a pitch, how to craft a story, understand what you know. The cafeteria at the New York Times is like, what a page one meeting.

00:03:07:22 - 00:03:38:20

Linda

That kind of famous page one meeting that used to happen at 4:00 every day, where the top editors would go and sort of pitch, the, the masthead about why they should be on the why their story should be on the why their, desk's story should be on the front page of the New York Times and now that that meeting is now, morning meeting about, you know, the whole page, of the New York Times, but and then, you know, you they go through the incredible photos sent from all over the world, of the day.

00:03:38:20 - 00:04:05:07

Linda

You know, what? What photos they would see, what photo they would feature on the home page or on the of the front page. So like news judgment and news value and hierarchy of news and and leads and and things like that. So I think that that's, you know, provided me a really interesting perspective on, on news value and judgment and has allowed me to really understand how journalists think, what they need, how to anticipate their needs.

00:04:05:09 - 00:04:07:03

Linda

And know how to pitch.

00:04:07:05 - 00:04:42:04

Jason

Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. One thing that, I found, interesting kind of in my career is watching how newspapers manage. And not just newspapers, but in fairness, newspapers tend to be, the more obvious because you see it visually right in front of you. But how? News outlets, cover their own news. And sometimes I see extremely strong bias towards putting their news, in prominent places that they wouldn't put a company of similar size or stature, if that makes sense.

00:04:42:04 - 00:05:03:14

Jason

So to make it even more abundantly clear is like, you know, years ago, like early in my career, newspaper seemed to be getting into the business of providing internet, services, internet access, dial up, internet access. Right. And so some newspapers were decided one day that, we ought to do that. We ought to create a modem bank and provide internet access.

00:05:03:14 - 00:05:20:11

Jason

So, you know, when they would have a change. And this is dating me big time. But, you know, a change in the phone number you would dial, to connect to the internet, some news outlets, newspapers would put that on their front page and like, a little box, as if it's, you know, a news story. And I'm like, gosh, you know.

00:05:20:11 - 00:05:43:18

Jason

And at the time, just for full transparency, I worked at a very large internet service provider. And if our local phone number changed in a market, would we have received that same level of of prominence, even though we were arguably in most markets, the largest provider? Right, right. We would not have received that same. Right. They would they would point it directly to buying an ad, yet they did not place a house.

00:05:43:23 - 00:06:07:17

Jason

They placed house ads, but they also had some control. And the other thing I see is that, like when a journalist retires or gets hired, you know, that tends to be, featured a little bit more prominently. So, Linda, I'm teeing this up to ask you kind of, I imagine that was probably sometimes your role of advocating for certain content on behalf of the organization to be published within, pages or the website of The New York Times.

00:06:07:17 - 00:06:13:21

Jason

And how did that process work? And did you face resistance from newsroom or, editors?

00:06:13:23 - 00:06:35:21

Linda

Well, yeah. I mean, well, the New York Times, I would say, is its own sort of animal. In terms of we always called it the church and state separation. And I think the integrity of that newsroom, regardless of where you sit or your point of view on, the integrity of The New York Times or your political views of, point of view of the New York Times.

00:06:35:23 - 00:06:58:10

Linda

The newsroom is, is really separated from the business side of the organization and working in communications. I sat on the business side. So working in comms, you had to pitch the editor just like any communications or PR agency or what have you would have to pitch the editor. So we would pitch the media editor or the reporter covering the media.

00:06:58:12 - 00:07:20:13

Linda

So The New York Times is a public company. So every time we had earnings, we had to, you know, call up the media desk or call it the, the, reporter and say, hey, we have earnings coming out. These are our numbers, you know, and we'd give them and we'd give them, you know, the exclusive typically because they'd want it, and they'd cover the earnings pretty, pretty regularly.

00:07:20:13 - 00:08:00:09

Linda

But, you know, if we had a major news, we were acquiring a company, we were selling, something or we had some financial news, mostly. Or, you know, a large scale kind of announcement, you know, CEO coming in or out. Excuse me. Then then we would have to pitch them just like anybody else. And so and I think it was actually harder to get coverage on our own, our, on our, our own paper than like, say, even the Journal or Bloomberg, which would be, you know, the top competitors if you're thinking about, you know, the competitive set, we had to sell them harder and, they, they were more, scrupulous

00:08:00:09 - 00:08:23:25

Linda

with us. And, so, yeah, you know, we it's them just like anybody else. So, you know, they had to really justify why they were covering themselves and they were not, favorable in any way in the coverage, nor should they be. And I think that that just shows, I think the level of integrity, I mean, this, that they're not, the a perfect, newsroom.

00:08:23:27 - 00:08:33:20

Linda

They're human beings. They don't run a perfect newsroom. But, you know, they definitely went at it with, the attempt to to be as good as they could be.

00:08:33:23 - 00:08:53:06

Jason

Sure. Yeah. I think it's hard for any organization to be purely balanced and objective with their own content and express when it comes from above, you know, like business, the the management, the leadership, the executive, the publisher has something they want to see published. Kind of hard to keep telling the publisher. No, and that kind of thing.

00:08:53:06 - 00:08:59:23

Jason

But, you know, I'm sure those are all kind of, interesting conversations that I think we'd all like to be a fly on the wall.

00:08:59:26 - 00:09:00:20

Linda

Certainly.

00:09:00:23 - 00:09:24:22

Jason

Yeah. Let's bring it back a little bit to this state of work life balance report. Yeah. Put out, and we'll come back to some of the other topics a little bit later, time permitting. But first of all, hands down work life balance, huge topic has been for decades, even, more timely topic, I would argue in the last five years, ten years, and very much so in the last five years.

00:09:24:24 - 00:09:47:29

Jason

In fact, I saw a great post on LinkedIn today by someone who said, I'm near perfect in my attendance of, you know, hitting the gym, being with my kids at their sports and their recitals and their other activities. And he had a couple other things you know, like he's really pleased that he's been able to do. And he said the caveat to all this is I would have never been able to do that if I didn't have the opportunity to work from home like I do now.

00:09:48:01 - 00:10:05:03

Jason

And so in the past, you know, he would he talked about how, you know, his commute would be an hour to two hour each way. His health was suffering, his work, you know, his work life balance, family relationships were suffering. This individual works in public relations. We're talking a lot about what's going on in the work life balance and in newsrooms today.

00:10:05:05 - 00:10:26:28

Jason

But I think that creates a very clear kind of indicator of how work life balance conversations have been much more transparent and much more proactive and preemptive, and people are seeing, including myself, the benefits of more work life balance in our life, where we suddenly have a lot more time on our hands to take care of ourselves and be more mindful about ourselves.

00:10:27:00 - 00:10:36:28

Jason

When to, yeah, kind of introduce the, the, the report to us both at a high level and a tiny bit about your process you went through.

00:10:37:20 - 00:11:00:10

Linda

Yeah. So we, actually do this state of work life balance research. This is our second year doing it, and we do it both and within our PR community, our PR audience community, which is going to be coming out later this year, and also with our journalists, audience, community, just to get a sense of, you know, what, what these communities are going through.

00:11:00:10 - 00:11:30:22

Linda

So for this report, we surveyed over 400 journalists, in January and February of this year. And, most of the respondents are based in the UK, I'm sorry, US, UK, India and Canada, and most are obviously in the US. And you know, what we found is, is not that much of a departure, from when we asked, the journalist community, community how they're feeling.

00:11:30:25 - 00:12:02:01

Linda

But I'm sorry, when we asked them last year how they were feeling and stress levels remain high and our we have a data journalist on staff, who who does this research and analyzes it for us. And, he spoke to Poynter about this, the findings earlier this week. And, you know, his, his point of view was, you know, when he when he asked this question, when he put this, survey out last year, you know, he really thought that the stress levels would come down post-election among the journalist community.

00:12:02:01 - 00:12:32:14

Linda

And unfortunately, they just haven't. So the stress levels just remain high. And, you know, half of journalists surveyed thought about leaving their job in the last year. And more than a third have, you know, said that they're not sure how long they'll stay in the industry. And to me, that's just like an insane number. Right. And what does that mean for, you know, journalism, the future of journalism, democracy and, you know, a free press.

00:12:32:14 - 00:13:08:02

Linda

And also, what does that mean, trickle down to PR folks like you and I and audiences. Right. Like, the more and more, you know, we we we haven't touched on this yet, but like, we know the younger generations are going to the TikToks of the world for news and information and they trust, news influencers, news flow answers, if you will, sometimes more than traditional journalists who actually have some boots on the ground and some actual expertise, in certain areas, what does this mean for the future?

00:13:08:04 - 00:13:15:09

Linda

It's a little scary for me personally, but you know, we'll see. We'll see.

00:13:15:11 - 00:13:42:27

Jason

Yeah. Linda, I actually, I have a growing concern also for the future of journalism for various reasons, including just anecdotally, we're hiring journalism students to be writers, and, and copy editors and things like that, often right out of school, sometimes with some experience. And, you know, the, the to be very candid, the work product, the quality is not as high as I remember it being years ago as well.

00:13:42:29 - 00:13:56:20

Jason

You know, I'm a proud alumnus of the Missouri School of Journalism, you know, one of the top journalism schools in the country and one of our recent hires. You know, I was talking to them about the grammar exam and how hard that was for me to take when I was in school. And so they don't do that anymore.

00:13:56:22 - 00:14:13:04

Jason

And I said, what, you know, like that was like a, a pinnacle, you know, element of getting into the school. And she said, yeah, they just found that a lot of the students nowadays don't really know grammar like they used to. And I was like, that's no reason to get rid of it, right? They yeah, that's that's when you double down on it.

00:14:13:04 - 00:14:34:16

Jason

So, you know, I think that were accommodating perhaps a little too much and instead of holding up a high standard and, you know, we're seeing that, in and, and, newsrooms and that's not really our topic of conversation today, but I think that does lead to some of the mistrust or, or, challenges that journalism is facing.

00:14:34:18 - 00:14:58:01

Jason

Is, you know, all you need are a few people who are not playing either at a level playing field or at the same level of, of, of of, integrity and quality assurance. And in the product suffers overall kind of thing. And then if those people, for whatever reason, continue to stay in journalism and they get promoted to editors, then their standards are low and the next generation is going to be lower or so.

00:14:58:04 - 00:15:19:12

Jason

I hope we figure out a way to fix that. Linda. But we've got we've got a more we've got a twofold problem. Right. So, you know, stress levels are high, as you mentioned. Standards are, you know, however, you know, whatever your personal opinions or research might show about that, the one two punch of that isn't probably a good, solution either, right?

00:15:19:12 - 00:15:44:25

Jason

If you got people who are burnt out and, therefore we've got to fill more jobs or more vacancies, or there's even less positions. You know, I remember in the Great Recession, I used to say the problem for PR people is that newsrooms are shrinking and, you know, and so is the budgets they have for, you know, at the time, print pages and other resources and some people would push back on that and say, well, newsrooms aren't shrinking.

00:15:44:25 - 00:16:11:15

Jason

There's just there's more newsrooms that are more niche down. I'm like, yeah, but the major newsrooms are much smaller than they've been in the past. And you're seeing, you know, fewer local newspapers, survive, in the traditional sense. So that stress of the stability of my employment and the demands of my employment rate are probably a big enough one to punch to get people to start looking for other options.

00:16:11:18 - 00:16:12:11

Jason

Kind of thing.

00:16:12:14 - 00:16:56:01

Linda

Yeah. I mean, we did ask, like, despite the, the burnout, most folks do plan to stay in journalism more than half said, they'll they plan to stay for at least the next two years. However, more than a third say they're unsure how long they'll stay in the industry. You know, which is interesting. So I think it's a real thing, and I agree, during that sort of, what we call it, the Vox BuzzFeed era, it was a fact that, like, the issue was like, you know, there's there's all these new newbies coming and we we weren't sure what the future was.

00:16:56:01 - 00:17:20:05

Linda

And I think local news is definitely hurting. I think now it's like, a lot of the big guys are like, you know what? Tech Crunch was just bought out by P last week. What the heck is that? What does that mean for the future? And I think a lot of us are just questioning, like the consolidation of media.

00:17:20:08 - 00:17:42:07

Linda

Trust is certainly like this gigantic, issue, again, with, like, the rise of what it means to be an influencer and what it means to be a content creator. I think newsrooms don't have resources, the way they used to. And I think that was one of the big things when I was at the times is like helping folks understand, like, you have to pay for news.

00:17:42:09 - 00:18:02:21

Linda

We, you know, if people have paid for high quality, independent journalism since the beginning of time, it wasn't until, you know, the last 20 years that people went online and said, oh, I can get all this stuff for free. And so I think that mindset has to shift. Like, you didn't go to the newsstand, just take a newspaper or magazine without paying for it.

00:18:02:23 - 00:18:14:16

Linda

And so I think that but I don't know if you're really going to ever, especially with the rise of social media, ever get that back, that feeling back or that thought that that you have to pay again. So.

00:18:14:19 - 00:18:45:01

Jason

Yeah, I was early on, in my career, when the internet, you know, was becoming, accessible by most people. And, at that time, I candidly started pivoting my career into PR and communication because I saw the power of storytelling online on behalf of companies. And my preference was, I want to help companies create their own strategy and agenda as opposed to showing up as a news reporter reporting another company's, you know, strategy and agenda.

00:18:45:04 - 00:19:08:03

Jason

But in the in that moment, you know, the question that newsrooms were asking and candidly asking me because I was kind of on the leading edge of the internet, and, advising companies on how to position themselves on the internet. And every ad director, every publisher, they wanted to ask me, how do we make money from this, you know, how do we transition and make money online?

00:19:08:05 - 00:19:25:13

Jason

And, you know, I felt like the product was the way you did it by having, you know, the superior product and now more people, you have more eyeballs and more reach. But, you know, that's not enough. As we're establishing so and as technology has has moved more and more digital, I want to go back and ask you a question.

00:19:25:20 - 00:19:37:03

Jason

One clarifying question for our audience. Your research, was it focused exclusively on journalists, or did you also ask, public relations communications professionals about their work life balance?

00:19:37:06 - 00:19:47:16

Linda

This specific study was journalists, and we do have a study, where we'll ask our PR audiences about their work life balance coming later in the year. Yeah.

00:19:47:17 - 00:20:10:06

Jason

Okay. Yeah. So I've pulled up on my screen, and we can put it in the episode notes for others to check out. The media bias chart. I've got a version from January 2025, and it puts basically the logos and news outlets in, you know, basically, for lack of a better word, categorizing them from being left or right leaning.

00:20:10:08 - 00:20:23:16

Jason

Was this a factor at all in, in kind of the research you did, are there any different numbers or indicators among stress levels based on the the, the quote unquote bias here that this organization is putting together?

00:20:23:23 - 00:20:43:28

Linda

No, we didn't ask about bias. We what we mostly asked about was, workload. The idea of being almost on, work arrangements. So hybrid work versus in-office work versus remote work, the sources of stress, like sleep,

00:20:43:28 - 00:21:00:11

Linda

A lot of folks told us, you know, if they could, if they could just have access to anything, like, they could just get anything they wish they could have, like a full week or a full month to, follow the story they really want to follow.

00:21:00:13 - 00:21:02:04

Linda

Like, how cool would that be?

00:21:02:07 - 00:21:07:27

Jason

Almost like a work sabbatical. Yeah. So working. But I get to follow one of my, passions.

00:21:07:27 - 00:21:14:00

Linda

Yeah, because most journalists are having to file for stories week.

00:21:14:02 - 00:21:17:06

Jason

So based on research, the four stories a week.

00:21:17:06 - 00:21:24:28

Linda

Yeah, yeah. So, that was the average, they're having to file four stories a week and so did that.

00:21:25:01 - 00:21:25:21

Jason

Your reporters.

00:21:25:21 - 00:21:39:06

Linda

Yep, yep. 48% of journalists write four or more stories a week. So, about a quarter are doing ten or more stories a week. It's like, how can you really invest?

00:21:39:08 - 00:21:39:18

Jason

Yeah.

00:21:39:22 - 00:21:59:17

Linda

There. You know, and that's again, like lack of resources and like thin budgets and things like that. So you want to know why they're stressed, you know. And they're not. You don't become a journalist to like churn. Right. You become a journalist to engage audiences and inform and tell like great stories. So I get it.

00:21:59:19 - 00:22:20:10

Jason

You're reminding me. One of my first editors was named Roger bull, and he told me that I wasn't his best editor, but I wrote more copy, meaning more stories than anybody else did. And, I took that as a passive aggressive, you know, back that kind of thing. But, you know, what he meant is, hey, I'm always going to have a copy because of you and other people a little slower to put something out there.

00:22:20:10 - 00:22:46:20

Jason

It puts them together. And they might be better writers, but, you know, at the time, he needed it, he needed, you know, content capacity. And I was feeding it regularly, so, Yeah. So maybe my writing wasn't perfect, but at least I could go find stories. Linda, I want to circle back. You, So, was it your story, your study that talked about the frequency of stories that they're writing on a weekly basis?

00:22:46:20 - 00:22:48:02

Jason

Did that come from your. Yes.

00:22:48:04 - 00:22:49:25

Linda

Yes, that was our research.

00:22:50:00 - 00:23:29:13

Jason

Perfect. I want to circle back a little bit further and say or again and say, I would love to see if in the future you could factor in the, outlets that those individuals represent and where they land on the bias chart. Because I guess what triggered that idea was you saying after the election, right. And so after the election, you would sense that maybe the left leaning media might feel a little more stressed, or the right leaning media, I don't know, but, you know, I think the, you know, political, preference, political, leaning of the reporter, especially if they're covering, you know, I mean, let's just

00:23:29:13 - 00:23:59:26

Jason

call it it, you know, like, a lot of, media, reporters, you know, are not going to like Trump, right? He's president. They might be more stressed having to cover him, right, as opposed to having to cover somebody else. Right? Sure. So just just something that might be interesting to look at in the future. But getting back to kind of how does how do we so, like you were working at the New York Times and you're pitching your own New York Times story to, employees of The New York Times, which is obviously a very unique situation to be in.

00:23:59:28 - 00:24:25:13

Jason

But how can we as communication PR professionals, how can we use this information, to leverage what we're doing in the specific practice of media relations, which is only one part of PR and we know that and communication just from reading your bio earlier of, messaging issues, management, media relations, social media and employee communication.

00:24:25:15 - 00:24:51:03

Linda

Yeah. So I think, you might laugh at this like, I, I don't do a ton of pitching, just having gotcha doing this for 20 years or so. I don't pitch unless I know it's a story. So I know that that might sound a little crazy, but I actually don't send a pitch unless I'm really confident that it's going to hit.

00:24:51:05 - 00:25:11:00

Linda

And I kind of tell my team the same thing, like, we sit and talk when we have something coming out, and my crack, we have a product coming out or we have news to share with a piece of research like this state of work life balance. We talk about it all the time, and we say, is it a pitcher?

00:25:11:00 - 00:25:26:27

Linda

Is it not a pitch? And we have that luxury, right? Like we're an enhanced team. We don't have, you know, a client, you know, saying, hey, this is big deal for us like that or whatever, you know? And I get that not everybody has a luxury. But, like, I don't send a pitch unless I know what's going ahead.

00:25:26:29 - 00:25:40:28

Linda

And, I know what it's going to hit, and I know when it's newsworthy and when it's not. So I think, that's my first thing, because I don't really feel like getting. Like crickets anymore.

00:25:40:28 - 00:25:50:29

Jason

So to clarify, you're saying you don't send a pitch until you know it's going to hit. You're saying you don't send a pitch unless you think it meets a standard of newsworthiness. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

00:25:50:29 - 00:25:53:00

Linda

And I know what it is. And I know what it's not.

00:25:53:01 - 00:25:59:12

Jason

Because you can't know if something's going to get covered unless you actually pitch it. But you can have the instinct that this feels like it has the right news value.

00:25:59:17 - 00:26:19:17

Linda

Right. And so I don't remember the last time that I sent a pitch that was okay, that was that didn't make it. And so and then so when you know, your pitch is good, when you know you have a story, then you can figure out what to do with it, right? So like, is it like an exclusive.

00:26:19:17 - 00:26:33:22

Linda

Right, so that you figure that out or is it something that you know, you share with a handful of special outlets early. So I don't know if there's a word for that in the industry. There might be, but I don't know what that word is. It's like a we call it like a preview. So like an early look.

00:26:33:22 - 00:26:54:13

Linda

Right to, you know, you're in your pitch like we're giving this to a handful of media. None of your competitors are getting this. But a handful of media is going to is going to get, a look at this early and you're one of them. Would you like the interview? Would you like to preview? You know, so like, is it that option or is it everybody gets it at the same time.

00:26:54:19 - 00:27:11:04

Linda

Right. You know, and so like, I don't know, like I said, I don't know the last time that we pitched something that we didn't get at least one piece of coverage on. And I think that that's just something that I learned at the times, because, like, I don't want to pitch something that I don't want to waste my time, you know, or my team's time.

00:27:11:04 - 00:27:38:15

Linda

There's just so much, so many other things we could be doing besides pitching. So I think that's the first thing. And then I think, like anticipating a journalist needs, when you're pitching is, like, so important to write, like, when you're, when you're working with a journalist instead of, you know, you know, what time works for you or what day works for you, and then you wait for them to respond.

00:27:38:17 - 00:27:46:16

Linda

I could do this day, in this day, in this day. Okay, great. Let me get back to you with my executives times. And then you're going.

00:27:46:19 - 00:27:48:02

Jason

And, in media relations.

00:27:48:05 - 00:28:11:08

Linda

Yeah. I can't stand it. It's just like, these are our times. Let me know which works for you, and I'll send an invite them in. But they tell you they are invited. Sent. And that's the last you hear from them. It's just like, you know. And then don't wait. Don't let them ask you, like, can I have a photo and a bio and some product shots?

00:28:11:10 - 00:28:12:19

Linda

Just send them.

00:28:12:22 - 00:28:12:28

Jason

Yeah.

00:28:12:28 - 00:28:14:25

Linda

Or just send them. Right.

00:28:14:25 - 00:28:16:01

Jason

It's not attachments.

00:28:16:03 - 00:28:28:11

Linda

Yeah. Like just send them you know like like anticipate their needs. And I think that like, that's so critical and like, just eliminate the back and forth as much as you can.

00:28:28:14 - 00:28:45:16

Jason

I love that, Linda. In fact, this year I was working with a vendor, and they're like, well, I could send you the link if you want to see it. And then and then I could also send you this. I'm like, or you could have just sent it instead of that, you know, and so I'm, I'm like, you know, can we be more sophisticated here and just have one email instead of 16 to get to the one thing?

00:28:45:16 - 00:28:47:16

Jason

So I really appreciate what you're saying there.

00:28:47:23 - 00:29:13:06

Linda

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean I think like those are definitely the things like that news, you know, and I think when you're, when you're pitching just for brevity and like subject line is like again, so we know these things but they really are so like just so important. And I mean and don't and don't underestimate the value of a follow up because they do miss it.

00:29:13:09 - 00:29:27:12

Linda

But you know, I think one follow up is okay, you know, our research is found 200 words maximum. Get your bullets out. And.

00:29:27:14 - 00:29:27:29

Jason

You.

00:29:28:01 - 00:29:52:27

Linda

Know, for your pitch. So yeah, 200 words max. Make sure you've got bullets. And, you know, one follow up is appropriate. Most journalists like to be pitched on Tuesday before noon. That's what our research is about. Like we research, you know, we asked thousands of journalists over the years and it consistent, like they consistently come back with the same the same, insights.

00:29:52:27 - 00:30:21:23

Linda

And I think, you know, just keep those tips in mind and you know, don't pitch, don't don't constantly pitch just to see you pitch. Yeah, right. There are other ways to do it. There are other tactics, especially with social now it's like, don't even see social as like, I have to do that. No, it's a whole nother like beautiful, like plethora of ideas and sources and use it, you know, and tell.

00:30:21:23 - 00:30:48:20

Linda

And I think like a lot of it is educating to like educating your boss, educating your clients about the values, the other things besides earned. Right. So that whole like Joe Rogan thing with the, you know, like Trump strategy, like talk to folks like we've been trying to tell folks this for how long, like all those articles came out after the election, like, wow, Trump's niece targeted strategy.

00:30:48:22 - 00:30:53:16

Linda

Like, really? We're PR people. We've had that strategy forever. It's just nobody listens to us.

00:30:53:18 - 00:31:16:12

Jason

Yeah. You know, why do you I don't I think you said something about don't underestimate the value of the follow up. And I think that has a double meaning to it because when I, when we talk about, follow up, first of all, the word axia in Greek means value. And we always talk about the idea of if you're going to follow up, you have to add new value to the conversation.

00:31:16:19 - 00:31:34:19

Jason

Don't just follow up and say, oh, I just want to make sure you got my pitch, you know, whatever it should be. Hey, I was thinking about this pitch today. What might also help you, you know, tell this story or get this story approved is additional bullet points of information. And also going back to where you said 200 word max for each pitch.

00:31:34:26 - 00:31:52:00

Jason

One thing we adopted, I don't know, about a year or two ago, and I'll be sure to put a link to this in the episode notes is where we, 80% of the time we try to pitch what we call a three sentence pitch. So what we've got, why it matters and how we would like you to use it.

00:31:52:02 - 00:32:15:04

Jason

That's it. No different than the three paragraph pitch we've been using for years, but now, instead of three paragraphs, attention spans are shorter, people are busier. Let's just nail it down to three sentences and then we want the journalist, as you said earlier, you know, to raise their hand and say, tell me more, or I might be interested and then you can send, you know, more content.

00:32:15:12 - 00:32:37:01

Jason

What I see, Linda, is a lot of PR people think here, I'm going to give them everything they need to do the story and then I'm done, you know? Right. But you want to get a yes. You want to get a series of yeses before they're committed to doing your story and just dumping stuff on them is, is is not only unprofessional, but disrespectful and just 100% the wrong way to do it.

00:32:37:05 - 00:32:53:17

Linda

Yes, and I have two more tips on that. Okay. When your follow up, there's two other ways to do it to tie it to the news of the day. So hey, do you see this article today? And it's not don't send in the same story that you're pitching because that's a nobody wants to write the same story that's already out there.

00:32:53:17 - 00:32:54:11

Jason

Something adjacent.

00:32:54:13 - 00:33:18:25

Linda

You're behind. Yes, adjacent data helps. If it's a data if it's a piece of data. To support a story better than a story that's already out there but similar or B say hey, I'm going to move on to another outlet. And I just wanted to make sure you don't that you're passing bing ding ding ding ding mate.

00:33:18:28 - 00:33:22:03

Linda

They're like oh wait somebody else might get this.

00:33:22:03 - 00:33:23:13

Jason

You're talking about FOMO.

00:33:23:16 - 00:33:51:02

Linda

Yeah FOMO. Exactly FOMO. Yeah. And then another way to use an embargo. I'm sorry, an exclusive is to, like, you know, use an exclusive in the same way, like, you know, like, hey, like, I wanted to meet, you know, you have this exclusive, and I'm going to give you until this deadline to either take it or pass right.

00:33:51:04 - 00:33:54:21

Linda

And, you know, that's not like, you know, exclusives.

00:33:54:21 - 00:33:55:22

Jason

Are.

00:33:55:24 - 00:34:16:13

Linda

You're in control of the exclusive. And you shouldn't use an exclusive either, just like willy nilly. Exclusives are number one top tier news. If you use an exclusive in the wrong way, you completely lose your credibility with the journalist. So I I've written about exclusives. If you don't know how to use them, Google it. Find the story, find the blog.

00:34:16:19 - 00:34:17:18

Linda

Just put it.

00:34:17:18 - 00:34:18:03

Jason

In the episode.

00:34:18:03 - 00:34:41:28

Linda

Notes. Yes please. Because I've just seen people overuse exclusives and embargoes to the point where it's like you're totally diluting the value of an embargo. For sure. And that's another thing I learned at the times, too, was like exclusives, embargoes on the record, off the record, on background, like familiarize yourself with with these news terms, because they matter.

00:34:41:28 - 00:34:51:16

Linda

And that's another thing that really scares me, too, about working with like, content creators and influencers like, I just don't know that any of these things are held sacred or valuable.

00:34:51:16 - 00:35:11:25

Jason

So right now, I'm with you, and most people don't even know what they mean. In my experience. In fact, I, I won't say a name, but a journalist recently posted on LinkedIn complaining about, you know, exclusives, embargoes and all this, and they were interchanging the terms. And I just said, hey, you know, for the record, this is what an embargo means.

00:35:11:25 - 00:35:33:09

Jason

This is what an exclusive means. And that journalist who I think most of our audience would know who they are actually comments said, oh, I didn't realize the difference. And I'm like, well, maybe that's why you're having challenges here. It's because, you know, not, you know, whatever. But again, to your point, to be candid, that's a someone who's an influencer who became a journalist, not somebody who was a journalist.

00:35:33:09 - 00:35:36:22

Jason

Right. Originally. So, yeah, that's emphasizing your point.

00:35:36:24 - 00:35:38:14

Linda

Interesting. Yeah.

00:35:38:14 - 00:35:59:02

Jason

Yeah, I want to I want to go back, and, Oh, I think I'm going to forget it now. But I still want to go back to something else you said earlier. You you made some good points. I just want to emphasize them. So 200 words max. For a pitch with bullet points. You said Tuesday before noon is good.

00:35:59:05 - 00:36:16:25

Jason

We talked about the value of of the follow up. What I wanted to go back to originally was you said, you know how many I want to ask you, how many days do you give them on the exclusive to make a decision? Because obviously, you know, same day is probably not reasonable, but you don't want to wait.

00:36:16:28 - 00:36:37:06

Jason

You know, I've always said I've always heard from, actually from sales. I've learned more about how to pitch media from good sales training, good sales training. Not bad sales training. Right. But there's a saying in sales training, that, you know, a quick no is better than a forever maybe again, a perfect example of media relations.

00:36:37:06 - 00:36:51:07

Jason

I'd rather get a quick no from a news outlet than sit around and think that they're thinking about it, and they're not. They just don't want to say no. So how long do you wait to follow up, before you come back with either the FOMO or some other technique?

00:36:51:10 - 00:37:17:07

Linda

Yeah. I mean, I think it depends on how early to pitch them. Right? So like, and that's and that's a tricky thing to like, you have to look at your launch date or your announcement date and move backwards. Right. And you could your it's so tricky because you have to give yourself time. You have to give yourself time to pitch the journalist, wait for them to respond, set up an interview or a demo or whatever you're doing.

00:37:17:09 - 00:37:33:22

Linda

Wait for them to not respond. Move on to the next journalist in your line. What if they don't respond? Then what if you have to move on to a third and they don't respond? Then you just have to throw in the towel, and sometimes you get really, really screwed over. And then, like, you run out of people and you're like, forget it.

00:37:33:22 - 00:37:59:02

Linda

I'm just going to, you know, and you've done there. But like, again, it comes down to knowing the news value of what you have. And so when if you were going to pitch a journalist under embargo or pitch an exclusive early, you need to know that you have a story. And so if you have a story, you have to be fairly confident, I would say 65% an up that someone's going to take that story.

00:37:59:07 - 00:38:18:08

Linda

And so then you figure out the amount of days, usually when I pitch an exclusive or news under embargo, I will give them, 48 hours to decide if they want the story or not and not the final pitch. Yeah. Like put like let me know by X date and time. And if I don't hear if I haven't heard by back from them.

00:38:18:11 - 00:38:31:28

Linda

I'll usually do it that morning. So like, hey, just FYI, I know I gave you a deadline of 2 p.m. today. I just wanted to, remind you of that. And then if I don't hear back from them by 2 p.m. at 2:03 p.m., I'm on to the next one.

00:38:31:28 - 00:38:56:15

Announcer

You're listening to on top of PR with your host, Jason Mudd. Jason is a trusted advisor to some of America's most admired and fastest growing brands. He is the managing partner at Axia Public Relations, a PR agency that guides news, social and web strategies for national companies. And now, back to the show.

00:38:56:15 - 00:39:24:02

Jason

You know, I’m going to take this as an opportunity to remind our audience of something I heard, which is, you know, in the agency business, research shows our clients think about us, meaning the agency, and they think about PR sometimes, depending on their role. You know, between less than 1 to 5% of the time. Right. And so I think we have this idea that I sent Len to this media pitch, and there was an exclusive assigned to it, but the deadline is this afternoon to your credit window.

00:39:24:09 - 00:39:43:23

Jason

Yes. You have to remind them that morning because they probably got 20 other things they're chasing down. And they have completely forgot about your pitch. And you're thinking, I think optimistically, you know, Pollyanna ish, you know, that they're thinking about this right now, just like I'm thinking about it. And I'm waiting for them to get back to me.

00:39:44:00 - 00:40:17:25

Jason

And they are completely not doing that. And I think that's one of the challenges of our profession. As more and more people are going straight into PR, and fewer and fewer people are going into journalism, we're not only seeing a saturation of too many PR people per se, trying to pitch media, in journalists. But we're also seeing a lot of those PR people having never stepped foot in a newsroom before and trying to pitch something that they just don't really understand through real world experience of walking a mile in that journalist's shoe of of what it takes to get, you know, a story done.

00:40:17:28 - 00:40:23:22

Linda

Yeah. I just think, like you read The Four Agreements, one of the greatest books of all time. Just don't take it personally.

00:40:23:22 - 00:40:37:08

Linda

just don't take it personally. I don't take anything personally. And PR took my one of my favorite tips. It's just not about you. It is not about you. Just don't take it personally. Just let it roll. They're not thinking about you in that way.

00:40:37:08 - 00:40:38:24

Linda

Don't think about them in that way.

00:40:38:28 - 00:41:07:25

Jason

Right? Right. Yeah. Look, I want to go back to your report. You mentioned earlier pitching the report so beyond expected, you know, PR profession, trade media and beyond, you know, journalism, profession or trade media outlets. Where else were you pitching this story that you felt confident that it would get covered? You know, considering that the topic is exclusively work life balance among the analyst?

00:41:07:27 - 00:41:35:04

Linda

Well, I didn't pitch the report. My my amazing, senior manager of comms pitched it, and we didn't pitch it. We don't pitch it beyond PR and journalists, media audiences, because we know that that's where we pitch it. Those are. But as you know, a SAS platform that for, you know, our customers. Yeah, our PR agencies and brands and, our free users, our journalists.

00:41:35:06 - 00:41:41:16

Linda

So those are our two core audiences, those that's what we care about. And we got them. So, yeah.

00:41:41:19 - 00:41:48:29

Jason

So you you said. And that's our. So if you were pitching it as an exclusive, where did you go exclusively. Oh, for spots.

00:41:49:03 - 00:42:11:24

Linda

Yeah. So we went to Poynter, which is, an outlet that, caters to journalists. So, we what we talked to Angela flew over there, and we had our data. Data journalists, do an exclusive interview with Angela to talk about the, the findings, because, you know, part of our mission is to, support journalists and support, independent.

00:42:11:27 - 00:42:18:29

Linda

Yeah, sure. A free press. So it speaks to our our mission and our roots. And it was spot on.

00:42:19:02 - 00:42:22:24

Jason

So to reach PR professionals, where did you go?

00:42:22:26 - 00:42:40:25

Linda

You know, PR news, Axios communicators, Reagan PR week, all those, those guys. Yeah. That's those are that's our those are our audiences. That's where our customer where our customers read and, where, you know, and then, of course, all of our social channels, we want to engage with all of our customers. And.

00:42:40:28 - 00:42:42:18

Jason

And then I got it through direct email.

00:42:42:25 - 00:42:43:19

Linda

You did?

00:42:43:22 - 00:42:59:01

Jason

Yeah. So, so on the PR, trade. Yeah. Or, industry stuff. Did you. It's not sounding like per se, you did an advance or an exclusive with those outlets.

00:42:59:03 - 00:43:00:02

Linda

No.

00:43:00:05 - 00:43:00:25

Jason

Yeah. Okay.

00:43:00:25 - 00:43:03:06

Linda

Then we just we just said the journalists outlet. Yeah.

00:43:03:08 - 00:43:16:16

Jason

Yeah. And that's why I was asking, because, you know, I was curious, like, you know, you would think that you would be eager to have all of them cover it and maybe even bring them, you know, each a unique angle or, or, a storyline that they could tell from the report.

00:43:16:18 - 00:43:40:03

Linda

Yeah. We could have, but we wanted to do the Angela the exclusive because we actually, did this report in 2024, and she had the exclusive then, and we wanted to maintain that relationship with her and give it to her again. And when the PR one comes out, we will give it exclusive most likely to, the same person who covered it exclusively last year.

00:43:40:03 - 00:43:52:21

Linda

We we like to give exclusives. We're a very small team. So, we do what we can in terms of, yeah, we do what we can to support these reports in addition to everything else. Yeah. So.

00:43:52:23 - 00:43:59:24

Jason

So so you're saying you have a work life balance report for the, professions of our public relations professionals?

00:43:59:24 - 00:44:08:19

Linda

Yes, we do. So we have, so many reports, I mean, the state of PR, which is over a thousand respondents, state of journalism, state of I, all of us. Yeah.

00:44:08:21 - 00:44:21:20

Jason

Got it. Let's talk more about your transition from the New York Times, into working for much. Yeah, yeah. Was that a, a direct transition or did you go somewhere else before?

00:44:21:23 - 00:44:41:28

Linda

No, that was a direct transition. Yeah. And, that was a crazy transition. I mean, I loved working at the New York Times so much. I mean, what an honor, right? It was a crazy time. I mean, working for the New York Times, which was, you know, public enemy number, I don't know, top five of the president at the time.

00:44:41:28 - 00:45:02:18

Linda

And, it was really difficult to work in comms at that time. But, you know, that wasn't the reason to leave. You know, working in media is difficult because the news cycle is difficult to digest. Sometimes it can have an impact on your mental health, obviously. And I saw that, you know, I, I've known Mark forever, obviously.

00:45:02:18 - 00:45:20:10

Linda

And I saw the opening. It was a director of PR job, and I was like, I can do that job. And I was working remotely at the time, and I was like, I could do that job. That be interesting to sort of build what a comms function might look like for a PR tech platform. I've always been passionate about PR.

00:45:20:10 - 00:45:46:14

Linda

I've always been passionate about kind of giving us more exposure as a as a function within business and helping us, you know, demonstrate our worth and demonstrate our value and get that seat at the table that everybody talks about. I've had, you know, I always say, you know, to to folks like, you know, my, my team and my people coming to me crying and being sick of being left off the thank you email.

00:45:46:16 - 00:46:04:23

Linda

Right. Like, congrats marketing, congrats technology, congrats finance on the big launch and read about what we did in USA today. And look at our big launch party. And it's like they're sharing the USA today article, but forgetting to thank the people that got it there.

00:46:06:17 - 00:46:12:06

Linda

You know, just for years I've had to like, you know.

00:46:12:08 - 00:46:14:07

Jason

You know.

00:46:14:10 - 00:46:38:12

Linda

Just counsel like my junior staff about. It's okay. You were left off, you know. It's okay. You weren't thanked. You know we're behind the scenes or people that call us a service or you're the service agency or you're this, you know, it's like, no, we're like, front and center. We're in the room like, we're counseling CEOs, like we're keeping crises at bay.

00:46:38:12 - 00:46:51:01

Linda

Like, you know, we're so much more than than that. And so and we're also so much more than like, media relations and. Right, you know, flacks and things like that. So anyway, I'm, I'm ranting. So anyway, I just.

00:46:51:07 - 00:46:52:20

Jason

I am venting a little bit, I.

00:46:52:21 - 00:47:15:28

Linda

Venting therapy it's therapy right. So I went for the job and you know, I think my experience got me the job and my interesting kind of background and sitting in, in the center of journalism and PR and, I got the job and I was able to build the team and build the function, and it's just been a pleasure.

00:47:16:01 - 00:47:20:00

Linda

I've been able to influence the product as the customer. It's a very meta.

00:47:20:00 - 00:47:21:14

Jason

Role that's so.

00:47:21:14 - 00:47:21:28

Linda

Important.

00:47:21:28 - 00:47:24:23

Jason

It's so cool as a buyer of.

00:47:24:23 - 00:47:25:04

Linda

Yeah.

00:47:25:04 - 00:47:47:20

Jason

Those types of services where. Yeah I've felt for years you know I just, I ask them, I'm like, do you have anybody internally who actually uses the platform, who can say, yes, this is to the benefit of the customer and what they want. Because I've been doing this a long time. I figured it out more than 30 years today, which was very humbling.

00:47:47:22 - 00:48:08:09

Jason

But, you know, well, not today specifically. Oh, I did the math today. And I thought to myself, you know, I've been doing this more than 30 years, and how many times have I, you know, seen a company, you know, not much crack, per se, but my crack competitors. Come on, say, oh, we've just launched this new and improved platform, and they launch it, and I'm like.

00:48:08:11 - 00:48:34:14

Jason

And my team or myself is like, okay, this is terrible. Like, yeah, feature we've been using for years to communicate between certain parts that were now supposed to be more integrated, feel more separated and isolated and not built in and integrated. And then sometimes you're just like, why is it that when I click on this, not only does that happen, but also this, which then breaks this other feature and like, oh, our developers decided that was the better way to do it.

00:48:34:14 - 00:48:36:26

Jason

And I'm like, okay, anybody they're actually using this. Yeah.

00:48:37:03 - 00:48:40:02

Linda

Anybody ever done PR there. It's like.

00:48:40:04 - 00:49:06:07

Jason

Yeah. And often Linda my point is the answer has always been no. Sometimes they'll hire an agency and do some trade, meaning the agency will do PR for the, you know, the, the, what I call the service bureau. But I'm just so thankful that you're there and actually using the platform. And I'm sure you have the ears of people to say, wouldn't it be better if this happens or that happens and, you know, you might get some messages from some of our audience who are also users.

00:49:06:07 - 00:49:17:28

Jason

So I'm in a unique position with my crack to be listed, as a, you know, as a journalist. So sometimes I get pitches and I, I typically respond, is there a reason you thought I would cover.

00:49:18:05 - 00:49:18:23

Linda

Oh, good for.

00:49:18:23 - 00:49:39:04

Jason

You or your, your kid winning the, the the the baton tossing competition and, and eastern Pennsylvania this weekend, you know, and they're like, oh, I don't know. You just came up on my media list and I'm like, yeah, I'm sure that's what happened is I came up on your media list for baton twirling in western Pennsylvania.

00:49:39:07 - 00:50:04:28

Linda

Well, good for you for for letting them know. And I hope that with every email they learn how to set a targeted pitch. Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's the coolest part, is just being able to work with product and say, hey, like, you know, we have so many ways, please, like we work together to offer like feedback and just actually ideas like what my the research team I'll be that they'll be like, well, what do you think of this?

00:50:04:28 - 00:50:26:26

Linda

And like from every step and it's just and it's not just me, my PR team, if we have PR people and customer support and sales and editorial, like every corner of this company, just hire PR people. Why does it stink? It makes sense to hire former PR people to work at Knock Rack. What? Yeah. Like why wouldn't you?

00:50:26:28 - 00:50:29:11

Jason

Yeah, I like that. It's cool.

00:50:29:13 - 00:50:32:12

Linda

Love it, love it for I love it for me.

00:50:32:14 - 00:50:49:15

Jason

So, Linda, any closing thoughts for our audience today, either on the topic of, pitching media, leveraging technology. Or, any just kind of parting words of wisdom you think would be valuable to, supplement the conversation we've had.

00:50:49:17 - 00:51:13:26

Linda

Yeah. I think, like, just be mindful, like, get the report. It's free. Like, just be mindful of where journalists heads are at, like what they're going through, maybe like, you know, maybe they're getting kicked out of the press corps right now. Or maybe they miss their vacation days because or maybe their vacation was interrupted. You know, maybe they don't cover a heavy duty topic like politics or war.

00:51:13:29 - 00:51:35:27

Linda

Maybe they cover lifestyle, but maybe they're still tired. Maybe they're overworked, and maybe if they've covered you before, maybe just reach out to them and say, hey, how you doing? Like, I saw this story and I really liked your coverage today. I don't have anything to pitch you. I just wanted to say hey. And I liked what you said.

00:51:35:29 - 00:51:57:25

Linda

Engage with them on social media outside wanting to get something out of them. Those. That's what relationships are. That's what like being a human being is and like empathy is. And that stuff really goes a long way. It really does come down to like, we lose that without the phones and without the coffees and the drinks and being all behind the screen.

00:51:57:25 - 00:52:16:03

Linda

But there are ways to get around it. And so that's what I would leave us with from this report. If that kind of stuff works and the benefits, you know, they have legs like, well beyond, you know, getting the story right, they benefit you in all sorts of ways. It's like multifaceted. So why not.

00:52:16:05 - 00:52:37:23

Jason

You know, and and to your point, you know, maybe there's just nothing wrong with saying, hey, thank you for being a journalist. And and, you know, I know it's not easy, but your role is important and it matters. And we need more people doing what you're doing. And so, you know, keep it up. And if there's anything I can do to be supportive, you know, and you're right.

00:52:37:23 - 00:52:57:24

Jason

Don't make it about pitching yourself because, you know, and, just a quick little anecdote, a story. A guy called me once and he said we his job title was chief strategy officer. And he said, you know, I kind of rose my hand and said, I'll take on the lead at our company of being, you know, the PR person reaching out to media because he felt like he could do it.

00:52:57:26 - 00:53:19:15

Jason

And he told me that, you know, he was having a lot of success, with, connecting his providers on an individual basis, with doing one off, you know, quotes and interviews and stories, you know, to the point of, you know, on a almost daily basis, his company, somebody from his company was being quoted in the media.

00:53:19:17 - 00:53:43:18

Jason

And then one day he decided that wasn't good enough. And so he started going to reporters when they would come to him for a quote and say, hey, you know, I'm not going to give you access to our expert providers anymore until you write a feature, on our company, because I've been helping you for months and you've never once thought to feature my company or responded to one of my pitches about featuring our company.

00:53:43:21 - 00:54:02:20

Jason

And I can tell by your face that you know exactly how well that went with the journalist, right? They basically told him to pound sand and they can find other people to, to quote, any time that they wanted. So this individual called me and said, hey, I've kind of, you know, you know, stepped in it in a bad way.

00:54:02:27 - 00:54:21:25

Jason

We need somebody to come back and fix this for me. And I said, okay, yeah, yeah, we could do that. You know? I mean, I've definitely recovered from worse. There's sure, helping clients through worse things. We can help you with this. But then he couldn't help themselves. He said, okay, well, how soon will you be able to have these news outlets to do a feature story about our company?

00:54:21:27 - 00:54:37:29

Jason

And I said, well, wait a minute. Are we trying to fix the hole you dug yourself in, you know, or are we trying to go right back into it? And he just said, well, you know, I think I could probably eat some humble pie and get them back in my favor, which he's right. He probably could do that, you know.

00:54:38:02 - 00:54:53:25

Jason

And he's like, but I need a difference in the output that we're getting, feature stories. And so then it was like a whole thing, you know, I'm like, okay, well, you've got to have something of value. So I'm just trying to educate this guy on how it all works. And he admitted he went, he did it wrong.

00:54:53:28 - 00:55:12:28

Jason

He admitted, you know, whatever. But he just didn't seem interested and willing to play, you know, the game, to keep it going and, you know, and then the kicker was, you know, for a company of this size, the budget that he was willing to spend, you know, I just told him, I wish him much success.

00:55:12:29 - 00:55:31:05

Jason

And, and, you know, it just blew me away. A company of this size was not willing to spend on PR and I'm like, well, no wonder you're not only hiring somebody who doesn't candidly know what they're doing, and then they step in it, but then, you know, you're going to keep down that same path. So yeah, what's it's about relationships right.

00:55:31:05 - 00:55:54:26

Jason

And consideration and I tried to tell him is I'll tell you and others I've had the exact opposite experience where a trusted expert guides a journalist and builds a relationship over time and, you know, helps them out to understand the story they're covering. That's not about that company. How many times that's paid off in the future and goodwill and and trust built over time.

00:55:55:01 - 00:55:55:21

Jason

So yeah.

00:55:55:23 - 00:56:00:04

Linda

100%. It's like, how much is your reputation worth? Clearly.

00:56:00:07 - 00:56:12:10

Jason

Yeah. You're speaking of reputation. What did Warren Buffett say? Right. Takes years to build a reputation and a minutes to lose it. And that guy lost it in minutes. You know, from being selfish, for lack of a better word.

00:56:12:12 - 00:56:15:10

Linda

And clueless and clueless.

00:56:15:12 - 00:56:19:00

Jason

He could have gotten what he wanted if he would have just asked a little bit differently.

00:56:19:03 - 00:56:24:14

Linda

Yeah. Or let you fix it and came and paid you appropriately for your services? Yeah.

00:56:24:17 - 00:56:28:23

Jason

Even if he did as well and hired us, I'm sure you know something would happen again because if you.

00:56:28:23 - 00:56:29:17

Linda

Fair enough.

00:56:29:20 - 00:56:30:12

Jason

Like that, you.

00:56:30:12 - 00:56:32:23

Linda

Know, you probably dodged a bullet with that. Oh.

00:56:32:25 - 00:56:44:01

Jason

Yeah. Sure. Well, Linda, in case our, we're wrapping up here in case our audience doesn't know. Can you give us the short couple sentences? What is Mook Rack exactly? Oh, sure.

00:56:44:01 - 00:57:21:23

Linda

I would be happy to do that. So, so my rack is, a AI powered PR software, that we've built ourselves. It's a kind of a comprehensive and integrated platform for PR pros and cons for us to, you know, reach out to the media and do research through the, media database, provide traditional and social media monitoring, reporting, collaboration tools, pitching, and measurement.

00:57:21:26 - 00:57:36:21

Linda

So you can kind of move through your workflow, and, prove the power of, your, PR results, on business outcomes. Nice that I that I that was pretty good, right?

00:57:36:24 - 00:57:42:05

Jason

Yeah, that's pretty good. So, if our audience wants to connect with you, what's the best way for them to reach you?

00:57:42:08 - 00:57:48:19

Linda

LinkedIn. Super, super active there. So, Linda Zebian on LinkedIn. Yeah.

00:57:48:26 - 00:58:07:11

Jason

Wonderful. Good. Well, we'll be sure to load our episode notes with link backs to the content that we've talked about. And back link to those appropriate resources that will be helpful to our audience today. And, Linda, we appreciate you coming on the show. And joining us and helping our audience stay on top of PR.

00:58:07:14 - 00:58:11:17

Linda

Thank you so much. It was this was so fun. I loved chatting, I went by so fast.

00:58:11:20 - 00:58:27:18

Jason

Yeah, I love it too. I loved it too. Really enjoyed it. So, if you found this episode helpful and you know a colleague who would benefit from watching it, please take a moment and share it with them, either on social media, text messaging, email, or however you would prefer to do that. They would really appreciate it, and I'm sure it’ll make their day better. So, thank you for tuning in. We appreciate you and being our audience.

00:58:27:18 - 00:59:23:09

Announcer

This has been on top of PR with Jason Mudd presented by ReviewMaxer. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode and check out Paso's ad on top of pr.com.

About your host Jason Mudd

On Top of PR host, Jason Mudd, is a trusted adviser and dynamic strategist for some of America’s most admired brands and fastest-growing companies. Since 1994, he’s worked with American Airlines, Budweiser, Dave & Buster’s, H&R Block, Hilton, HP, Miller Lite, New York Life, Pizza Hut, Southern Comfort, and Verizon. He founded Axia Public Relations in July 2002. Forbes named Axia as one of America’s Best PR Agencies.

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