In this episode, Axia’s David Triana joins On Top of PR host Jason Mudd to discuss key strategies for nurturing mutually beneficial media relationships that make a lasting impact.
Tune in to learn more!
Our guest
David Triana is the director of media relations at Axia Public Relations. He has been mentioned in outlets such as the Daily Mail, Business Insider, and Forbes, providing commentary on topics related to the PR industry.
Watch the episode here:
Listen to the episode here:
5 things you’ll learn during the full episode:
- Always provide value when communicating with the media.
- Proprietary data can differentiate you from your competition.
- Respect for journalistic ethics is KEY.
- Stay ahead of the news cycle whenever possible.
- Make the media's job as simple as possible (be as prepared as possible).
*Bonus: Tips on earning media coverage for PR professionals with no prior newsroom experience.
About David Triana
David Triana is a public relations professional specializing in media relations and securing earned media coverage for clients in a variety of industries. He currently serves as the director of media relations at Axia Public Relations. He has been mentioned in outlets such as the Daily Mail, Business Insider and Forbes, providing commentary on topics related to the PR industry.
Quotables
- “Not being afraid to fail — I think that is the most important thing and most important attribute you can have as a PR professional.” — @David Triana
- “It’s like a venn diagram: what the media wants, what the company wants, and what is newsworthy and interesting.” — @JasonMudd9
- “Anytime I’ve reached out to the media on behalf of a client, I never want to go empty-handed.” — @David Triana
- “Sometimes a really good media pitch is just three sentences. You want them to say, ‘Tell me more, I'm interested.’” — @JasonMudd9
- “You often have a lot of valuable data inside your own organization. I tell clients, you probably have some data internally that you don't even realize would be valuable to help set a finger on the pulse of the marketplace and the economy and what it’s doing.” — @JasonMudd9
- “So much of this is making a really good first impression that defines the longevity of that relationship. And if you're willing to be available right off the bat … things like that set you apart from many others.” — @David Triana
Resources
- Connect with and learn more about David Triana on LinkedIn.
- Email David Triana at DTriana@axiapr.com
Additional Episode Resources from Axia Public Relations:
- Listen to more episodes of the On Top of PR podcast.
- Find out more about Axia Public Relations.
Disclosure: One or more of the links we shared here might be affiliate links that offer us a referral reward when you buy from them.
Episode highlights
[03:30] Media pitching tips for PR professionals with no newsroom experience
[25:55]Proprietary data can differentiate you from your competition
[30:40]Respect for journalistic ethics is KEY
[36:38]Stay ahead of the news cycle whenever possible
[40:39]Make the media's job as simple as possible (be as prepared as possible)
[46:25] Closing remarks and tips
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Transcript
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:29
Announcer
Welcome to On Top of PR with Jason Mudd, presented by ReviewMaxer.
00:00:09:29 - 00:00:25:18
Jason
Hello and welcome to On Top of PR. I’m your host, Jason Mudd with Axia Public Relations. And today we're talking about best practices for mutually beneficial long lasting media relationships. And our guest today is David Triana. Also vaccine public relations where he is the director of media relations.
00:00:25:21 - 00:00:46:11
Jason
David has helped clients earn media coverage in a variety of industries. And he's also, been mentioned in media outlets, including business Insider, Daily Mail and Forbes, where he's given commentary on public relations, profession and how to get media coverage. So with that, I want to welcome, David to the show.
00:00:46:13 - 00:00:48:20
David
Thanks, Jason. Happy to be here.
00:00:48:23 - 00:01:08:20
Jason
Yeah, I'm glad to be here, too, and excited to share with our audience some of your best practices. So, David, you've been recognized as one of the top media relations professionals in America. And, that's one of the reasons we're really glad to have you on our team. Not to mention you're just a good guy overall. David, how did you land in PR?
00:01:08:22 - 00:01:29:23
David
So funny thing. originally the job that I interviewed for was a writing position, but then I was asked, you know, hey, we have a lot of writers on staff. What do you think about delving into PR? I had no idea what that would turn into. But at the time, getting out of, you know, the Covid era, you know, just needed work.
00:01:29:28 - 00:01:57:11
David
I was like, okay, let's try it. My experience beforehand was all journalism related. So just doing freelance work and things like that. And then, it just fit like a glove. immediately I was lucky enough to have some really great clients, and it was what I've noticed is people that come from the journalism field that go into PR just have an innate understanding of how that job is supposed to, you know, go and how you're supposed to interact with the media.
00:01:57:14 - 00:02:03:29
David
so, yeah, it was kind of a happy accident. And I've been in the industry for the past three years.
00:02:04:02 - 00:02:28:10
Jason
Yeah. David, I completely agree that the the best media relations professionals are ones that have been in a newsroom, understand the environment and the pace, the challenges and kind of just the I wouldn't say the culture, but the high expectation, the fast paced and and what really is the target or the type of stories that the reporters are looking to cover?
00:02:28:13 - 00:02:43:03
Jason
I think a lot of times people say, oh, I got a great story because either, you know, the people inside my company laugh when I tell it, or the people inside my company seem to care about it. But the truth is, when you're talking about media relations and earn media, it matters what people think outside of your organization.
00:02:43:03 - 00:02:45:01
Jason
If it's interesting, relevant to them.
00:02:45:03 - 00:02:46:02
David
Exactly.
00:02:46:04 - 00:03:05:27
Jason
You made another good point. and I and I think it's worth repeating in that, you know, again, media, the best media relations professionals or those that have worked in newsrooms. But at the current rate, there's something out there like, PR people are currently outnumbering, journalists like 6 to 1. I think is what I read recently.
00:03:05:29 - 00:03:32:03
Jason
And what I'm noticing is we're hiring entry level PR, professionals. You know, they have almost zero newsroom experience. And, that's because there's just not as many jobs in journalism for them to start out in. but I guess my question to you might be, what would be a prescription or recommendation you would give someone who wants to be successful, earning media coverage but has not yet, ever worked in a newsroom.
00:03:32:05 - 00:03:36:14
Jason
Are there hacks or tricks or shortcuts you might offer, David?
00:03:36:16 - 00:03:56:19
David
the thing that I would say is, like, the way that I did it was I just kind of dove into it. I think if you start to think about it too much and you start worrying about making a mistake or not necessarily knowing how to go about the interaction with a client, how those steps need to go.
00:03:56:21 - 00:04:16:06
David
I find that you're just going to be even more nervous and not necessarily know how to do it. So I think if you know, you have just any understanding of how to interact with people, I would just dive into it. You know, the way that I got into it. Obviously it wasn't even for PR. So I think a lot of people that are looking for work, I think they have a chance.
00:04:16:06 - 00:04:44:10
David
If you can show your willingness to learn first of all, your ability to communicate them and have, you know, interpersonal relationships and then not being afraid to fail, I think that is the most important thing. And the most important attribute you can have is if you're a professional. the story I always tell is, I think in my first month, I accidentally sent out a pitch that just said hi to, like, you know, just a lot of top tier journalists, and, you know, growing pains you have to get through.
00:04:44:10 - 00:05:00:16
David
But, yeah, for people coming out of school or just really not having a good sense of direction of where they want to go in the industry. just dive into it, start at the bottom, work your way up, and if you don't like it, you know, and that's unfortunate, but at least you get a shot.
00:05:00:18 - 00:05:18:14
Jason
Yeah, I think that's really important. In fact, I've recently had a conversation with somebody in our organization that I'm mentoring and just said, hey, I want you to feel comfortable failing forward like, make some mistakes, take some risk. And it's really easy when the risks you're taking are only internally meaning that you're writing something and your supervisor is going to see it anyway.
00:05:18:16 - 00:05:38:01
Jason
Take some risks. It's okay if you don't have all the information. It's okay if you don't have it perfectly right, but I'd rather see you get something 80% done with a few holes in it than sitting back and waiting to even start it, or only getting one third of the way done until you have a chance to access either the client or your supervisor, or somebody who can give you more, more input.
00:05:38:03 - 00:06:00:15
Jason
Right? a couple of thoughts. I have a couple tips. I have, David, for somebody in that situation we just described would be one, get yourself invited to or or or attend some sort of newsroom media tour. you know, print newsrooms or I've have, have gone mostly virtual and or their staff just seems to be almost non-existent.
00:06:00:17 - 00:06:21:14
Jason
but the TV newsroom and the radio newsroom is still pretty, well staffed, with people. And I think just walking through the newsroom, seeing how it's departmental eyes, like your sports here's, you know, general assignment desk. Here's where the anchors sit. Just kind of the producers are the news director, and the assignment desk is just kind of, for me at least, I'm a visual person.
00:06:21:14 - 00:06:37:01
Jason
I went to the University of Missouri, so the Show-Me state. So I'm always telling people to show me stuff so I can see it and visually understand it. But for me, it kind of just helps me in my mind walking through that newsroom to being like, okay, who am I pitching? What is their environment like? You know, who do they sit next to?
00:06:37:02 - 00:06:54:03
Jason
How busy are they just kind of really helps me crystallize. Like, I've got to be clear, I've got to be concise. I've got to be smart. I've got to be brief. And the other thing that I think is a really good tip is, you know, just studying the media, studying news and what gets covered. Which way and why and how.
00:06:54:06 - 00:07:12:19
Jason
And I think that's kind of a lost art as well, is that people are trying to pitch a, you know, magazine newsletter, to show of some sort that they've never even consumed on their own, and therefore they don't really relate to it and they don't really see examples. So, you know, that's something I recommend as well.
00:07:12:21 - 00:07:15:01
Jason
Did you have any other thoughts to add to that?
00:07:15:04 - 00:07:36:09
David
The only other thing that I would say is research is so important. because as you just mentioned, if you're pitching a news station or, show any sort of media outlet that you've never even read an article, you never watched the show, you have no idea how they operate. A journalist is going to see your pitch and just immediately be like, okay, this is not targeted to me.
00:07:36:11 - 00:07:57:04
David
They have no idea what I cover. They have no idea what we're about. My email is clogged up as it is. I'm not going to waste my time. You're going to hit delete and they're never going to read your pitch. So my advice is always quality over quantity. Take the time, research, understand who you're pitching, what you're pitching, and be as concise as possible.
00:07:57:07 - 00:08:16:22
Jason
Yeah, a couple months ago, you and I were talking. You might remember this, but, we kind of agreed that, like, you know, in baseball, a Hall of Famer is going to bat 300, right? And in media relations, I, I think we mutually agreed it's kind of the same thing. Like, if 1 in 3 of your pitches land, then you're pretty good at what you do.
00:08:16:24 - 00:08:51:10
Jason
and, and I think that's, that's a helpful kind of, metrics metric for me to share with, with clients, especially potential clients, when maybe they've never hired a PR firm before. They've been disappointed with their past, you know, PR firm experiences. you know, I kind of describe to them that environment, you know, hey, if I go to the Wall Street Journal and I pitch them three times and they say, yes, one out of three times, and I'm doing a pretty good job, the the next thing, though, I think we have to say is like a precaution because I know there's entrepreneurs who are listening to this podcast or who I've said that
00:08:51:10 - 00:09:18:08
Jason
too, who go, okay, so in other words, we need to be pitching the Wall Street Journal 100 times. So then we get coverage, you know, 30 times. I'm like, nope, that is not the right approach either, because guess what? That Major League Baseball player didn't have an artificial number of of additional at bats, right? He still he he or she but mostly right had to bat in a particular order with eight other players on the team in a particular order.
00:09:18:10 - 00:09:44:14
Jason
So it's not the at bats necessarily that that hurt or help. but instead it's being selective about the things that the pitches that you swing at or the pitches that you take or decide not to take. And I think that's one of the keys of really good media relationships, is not taking a pitch to a contact in the media just because your boss or the CEO said to or wants to.
00:09:44:17 - 00:10:04:29
David
Yeah, you have to show discretion. you have to understand that you are the professional in the situation. You know, you are the one that is for lack of a better term, calling the shots and how the strategy should play out. And that's not to say that they're there doesn't need to be collaboration because the relationship doesn't work without collaboration with the client.
00:10:05:01 - 00:10:19:09
David
But the way you execute it, you rely on your own expertise and the expertise of, you know, the members on your team. and yeah, it's a very easy way to destroy a media relationship by always listening to what a business leader, you know, wants to do.
00:10:19:12 - 00:10:44:04
Jason
Right? Right. It's almost like, a Venn diagram, right? You need. Yeah. What the media wants, what the company wants, and then kind of what what is newsworthy and interesting. And the PR person, I think, when they're doing their role. Right, is that ambassador, is that equivalent to like, the press secretary? Right. The white House press secretary has to serve the president, but at the same time has to serve the press corps.
00:10:44:07 - 00:11:05:05
Jason
And if they alienate one of those two to audiences, they're out, you know, are they either they're either out. Are they losing, their entire credibility? And so that's a very fine line to balance. And, and we as public relations experts and specialists, we have to balance that every day on behalf of our clients and kind of try early and often.
00:11:05:05 - 00:11:23:23
Jason
I say early and often to kill a story, before a client gets too invested in it and thinks it's going to work. And I've seen that happen firsthand, where they bring a, a story idea they're really excited about to the conversation when we meet with them. And then we try to persuade them that it's probably not as interesting as you think it is.
00:11:23:26 - 00:11:36:20
Jason
And it's almost like they don't hear that, right? They're just like, okay, well, let's go ahead and pitch it and see if it works. And we're trying to respectfully say, I don't think we should pitch this. Therefore we're not going to pitch it unless there's something to substantiate why this is important.
00:11:36:23 - 00:11:37:29
David
Yeah.
00:11:38:01 - 00:11:38:24
Jason
go ahead.
00:11:38:27 - 00:11:56:20
David
No, I, I was going to say that the question that I always, you know, internally ask myself if I am not at that level with the client yet, if, you know, we've been, if the relationship is still fairly new, but the question you should be asking when that, you know, suggestion is made, why should anybody care? Yeah.
00:11:56:21 - 00:12:02:22
David
You know, and if you can't answer that question right off the bat, you really don't have a story.
00:12:02:24 - 00:12:21:02
Jason
Yeah. Totally agree. Why should anybody care? How does it help them? Why does it matter to them? those are real good questions that that everybody should ask. And it's not just because, well, it's important to the company or it's going to help us with sales or, you know, the regional manager wants us to do it. Right. Those are not good reasons.
00:12:21:05 - 00:12:49:09
Jason
they're they're good reasons to do some sort of marketing or communication. But I wouldn't count on earned media is the way to do it in a recent podcast episode. So locast, that we can link to in here. in the episode notes, I mentioned a term that I heard somebody use, and it was perfect because it was, a presentation that was done at the automotive and for the automotive industry about PR, but the person said they like to use this acronym called no gas, which means no one gives a shit.
00:12:49:09 - 00:13:11:05
Jason
Right. And, and I thought, that's great. Right. So that was kind of their way internally within their own communication department to give feedback to each other when they're doubling down on a story, pitch or content piece that just doesn't, you know, they know in their heart this doesn't matter to anybody outside our four walls. So they would push back with each other.
00:13:11:05 - 00:13:27:18
Jason
And that was the acronym they would use to say no gas. Right. or and if they're marking up a piece of paper, they might just circle a sentence or paragraphs, but no gas. And so that tells you two things, I think, David. One scrap it or two flip it. So you're focusing on your audience and what's in it for them.
00:13:27:25 - 00:13:33:02
Jason
Instead of focusing on looking at yourself in the mirror and reflecting back what what you think matters to you.
00:13:33:05 - 00:13:34:29
David
Yeah, exactly.
00:13:35:01 - 00:13:45:24
Jason
Well, one of the things we want to talk about is always provide value when communicating with the media. And I just wanted to ask you kind of, to give us a little bit more background and description on that.
00:13:45:26 - 00:14:06:21
David
Yes. So any time that I've reached out to the media, on behalf of a client, I never want to go empty handed. And what I mean by that is I'm not just, you know, kind of going back to the self serving thing. I never just want to say, hey, so-and-so has a really great idea for this. It could really help their company, blah, blah, blah.
00:14:06:24 - 00:14:37:25
David
I always try to look for something that has a unique perspective on a topic that the reporters covering, something that he or she hasn't heard before. adding just adding a different layer to the overall conversation. and that's where the research comes in, because I've seen it happen time and time again. especially with follow up emails to reporters, if you're just consistently following up saying, hey, I just wanted to touch base if you're interested and then leave it at that with my follow ups.
00:14:37:25 - 00:15:08:11
David
I've always, you know, added a little bit of a nugget of information there, like, hey, just touching base. Also, I have x, Y and Z that I think could be beneficial to you and your audience. So when I talk about providing value, it's always about enhancing your communication, not letting it be just a, you know, a one way, you know, self-serving interaction, but helping the journalists at every every chance you get it.
00:15:08:11 - 00:15:27:27
Jason
David, you are absolutely correct. And I talk about this all the time with our team, just this idea of, you know, you call it going empty handed. I call it like we just talk about adding value. Right. And the idea is that, you know, sometimes I'll look at a pitch and somebody asks me to review it, or maybe I'm even working on one myself, and I'll make a note.
00:15:27:27 - 00:15:51:06
Jason
Hey, pull this out and use it for follow up. Right. Because a pitch is nothing more than a teaser. And as you and I have been talking about, sometimes a really good media pitch is just three sentences. You just want them to say, tell me more or I'm interested, you know, or or whatever. And then you can start kind of spoon feeding them a little bit of information, almost in soundbites because one that's all they have time for upfront.
00:15:51:08 - 00:16:17:19
Jason
And two, like you said, that's a fresh way to stay in front of them where you're adding more value to to them and helping kind of either passively, aggressively or intentionally moving the story forward by giving them a little bit more, pieces of nugget or pieces of information. And sometimes that might be just, like I said, a little bit more information, a little bit more background, could be a factoid or statistic, could be a third party that they could also interview to complete the story.
00:16:17:21 - 00:16:36:15
Jason
but the one thing I would really tell our audiences, in my experience, the media doesn't really mind when you follow up with them, so long as it's helpful and so long as it's valuable. In fact, we celebrate follow ups here at the agency. So, you know, people come forward like, Marjorie on our team will say, you know what?
00:16:36:15 - 00:16:53:10
Jason
I follow up with this guy 11 times. And on the 11th time he said, I'm so glad you stayed on top of me about this because I was interested in the story. But I was on assignment, that I was on vacation, and then the election happened or whatever it might be, and now I'm available and still interested in covering it.
00:16:53:10 - 00:17:14:05
Jason
And so we celebrate those types of followers because that's a big deal, right? That means in those 7 or 11 times you follow it up, you did not frustrate that person. You did not, nag them. What you did is each time you came back with a little bit more, info, and inside it could be a new research study that was done that freshens up that pitch you sent them a month ago.
00:17:14:10 - 00:17:31:09
Jason
Could be a further advancement in the in the topic. it could be that, you know, they were mentioned, you know, by some politician in some presentation or something like that. That just brings it back up to the top of a priority list, and you've got to do the job of bringing it back up in their inbox.
00:17:31:12 - 00:17:36:08
Jason
Right. Have you had experiences like that? David, and what would you recommend to our audience?
00:17:36:10 - 00:18:03:07
David
Yeah, I've had actually quite a bit. the best thing I can say is and you kind of alluded to it, always be respectful in your followers. you have to understand that journalists are receiving, you know, tens of hundreds of pitches a day, depending on their coverage area, the hours they work at. Sometimes they just don't have time to see everything.
00:18:03:09 - 00:18:24:17
David
and, and again, if they're on assignment, they're just not going to get to it. So consistent follow up. And I'm not saying to follow up, you know, every single day I my rule of thumb is always send a pitch follow up in 48 hours. If I don't hear anything by, you know, the end of the week, then just send a weekly follow up like, hey, hope everything's well.
00:18:24:19 - 00:18:41:11
David
Try to add as much value as I can and each follow up and hopefully, you know, something will happen. I remember there was one pitch I had sent and it wasn't until I think it was about three months later that I finally heard from the journalist, and we did a story on on that particular pitch. So you never know what can happen.
00:18:41:15 - 00:18:44:26
David
So I think follow ups are really great for that reason.
00:18:44:28 - 00:18:55:11
Jason
Yeah, I totally agree, David. All right. well, I want to go and take a quick break and we'll be back on the other side with more with David and more best practices of media relations. We'll be right back.
00:18:55:11 - 00:19:19:29
Announcer
You're listening to On Top of PR with your host, Jason Mudd. Jason is a trusted advisor to some of America's most admired and fastest growing brands. He is the managing partner at Axia Public Relations, a PR agency that guides news, social and web strategies for national companies. And now, back to the show.
00:19:19:29 - 00:19:36:29
Jason
Welcome back to On Top of PR. I’m your host, Jason Mudd with Axia Public Relations. I'm joined by David Triana, my colleague at Axia. We're talking about best practices for media relations and media relationships. And David, we were just talking about following up, and always, being professional with journalists. I wanted to share a couple of things.
00:19:37:03 - 00:20:01:28
Jason
one, my my friend Todd, he tells me he follows up, depending on the urgency, the story every five days or every ten days. And one thing I like about that, that, that was part of his process, is that by following, like you said, you know, you follow up, you know, 24, 48 hours later and then he just sets it up on a cycle depending on the the urgency of the topic or the priority of for him and his client, every 5 to 10 days.
00:20:01:28 - 00:20:19:12
Jason
And he said, when you pick a formula like 5 to 10 days, you're always landing on a different day of the week. And his theory is that, you know, you could be sending this pitch if you follow up every week on Wednesday. And maybe for all you know, that reporter covers the desk on Wednesday or, you know, is off on Wednesdays or something weird like that.
00:20:19:12 - 00:20:35:06
Jason
So he just hits them up every 5 to 10 days, depending on the priority. but it's one or the other. And he says even if it's a weekend, he still sends it because sometimes he gets his biggest response on weekend and news still happens on the weekends. A lot of writers will be covering or assigned or doing something on a weekend anyway.
00:20:35:09 - 00:20:49:26
Jason
And the other, other thing I want to share with people is that you have to think of the journalist's inbox. And, Dave, I know you know, this is true. Like it's a search engine. And so, so many times, like, you said earlier, before the break, you pitch somebody, they went dark, you didn't hear back, and suddenly you heard back.
00:20:49:29 - 00:21:12:00
Jason
And I can tell you like they're like, hey, I knew there was a guy who was following up with me about a cyber security expert for, you know, banking and health care. And so I just searched my email because this story came up and you came up as the person. So I'm calling you now, right after a year later, six months later, three years later, whatever it is, I'm now ready to talk to your expert.
00:21:12:06 - 00:21:37:14
Jason
And so I think you really have to think about that is like, you know, don't give up just because you didn't get any coverage this month or this quarter because long term, eventually they're going to have a need right. So one more little anecdote I'll share with our audience, and then we'll get back to our questions. And that was one time I had a chief, strategy officer at a, a I'll call it a pharmaceutical tech company.
00:21:37:16 - 00:21:59:08
Jason
And they said to me, you know, hey, I've really messed up. Like, I took on PR in addition to my normal role because nobody here could do it. And we just weren't ready to hire an outside agency. And he said everything was going great because I was connecting, our experts internally and externally with journalists to, who were really doctors.
00:21:59:08 - 00:22:23:08
Jason
Right? I was connecting the doctors that are either on our staff or they are, you know, carry our products or providers of our products. Excuse me. And he said, that's been going great. We've been getting coverage, like every week. And he said, but I started getting frustrated because I'm spending a lot of my time connecting these journalists with our doctors in-house or our doctors in the field, and all we're getting is a quote.
00:22:23:10 - 00:22:50:27
Jason
and sometimes they mention our company name and sometimes they don't. And he said, I just was really getting frustrated because the vision was always to have feature stories, either featuring our company, our leadership team or our products, and it just wasn't happening. So he said, well, here's where I messed up is the next time each of these reporters came to me and wanted to quote one of our doctors, I basically told them, hey, I'm tired of being your, your, editorial assistant and finding all these experts for you.
00:22:50:29 - 00:23:02:28
Jason
I'm not going to do that anymore until you feature one of our, one of our leadership team or one of our products, or do a feature story on our company. David, what do you think? How do you think that journalists responded?
00:23:03:00 - 00:23:26:28
David
Well, I could tell you that dictating the terms, is never a good thing to do, at any time. And I've had experience with this where either a colleague or just stuff that I've seen written on LinkedIn from journalists and situations that they've been in, I've always said, you're working on the journalist's time. You're like any interaction.
00:23:27:00 - 00:23:53:09
David
I get why that situation could be frustrating, but making that relationship, as you know, mutually beneficial as possible, even if the story doesn't happen or off the bat, even if it takes months. Never try to get on the bad side of a journalist. As I said before, they are already overwhelmed as it is, and half the time they are the ones being given a story to write.
00:23:53:09 - 00:24:08:18
David
You know, a lot of these stories are predesigned. They're answering to an editor, they're answering to a producer. You know, if you try to say, hey, I'm not going to do this until you do this, not a good idea. But maybe in this situation it worked out for him. I'm interested to see how it turned out.
00:24:08:20 - 00:24:31:10
Jason
Oh, it didn't work out well. Days didn't work all all. But you gave some good insight and valuable advice. So. Yeah. So the guy basically told me that those reporters all told him to pound sand and that he had wrecked every relationship he had built over the 3 to 6 months that he was doing this. And I told him, I said, what we'll never know is whether or not those people were willing to do that story eventually.
00:24:31:10 - 00:24:45:09
Jason
And, you know, and you not having to ask in a way that you asked instead of pitching them the idea. And I kind of tried to ask him. I was like, well, how did you pitch them to do that type of story? You know, did you bring it up before? And I think he literally just thought they would just do it on their own goodwill.
00:24:45:09 - 00:25:15:23
Jason
And he didn't have to ask for it. You know, it's kind of like, you know, you don't go to a restaurant and hope the waitress comes over and says, hey, would you like a doctor Pepper? Now instead of this, the sweet tea you've been drinking all day? you know, they they're not mind readers, right? And so, the just to finish off the story, we ended up not working with them, 100% because he was not willing to pay us to simply rebuild those relationships and get the doctors quoted again, he still was insisting on these feature stories happening.
00:25:15:23 - 00:25:34:05
Jason
And I said, well, first of all, you're on the, you know, the bad list, right? Nobody, you know, the journalists don't want to work with you anymore. We've got to repair and in that relationship, restore it to where it was before. And then more tactfully, I find and pitch good stories that will lead to the feature stories you were originally looking for.
00:25:34:12 - 00:25:50:07
Jason
But for us just to go to them and start pitching them a feature story and say, I have the bad taste in my mouth about that company, you know? Yeah. So they're not inclined to do it. He wasn't willing to make that investment. And, and I did a little Google search recently, and trust me, they're not benefiting, from any more media coverage.
00:25:50:07 - 00:25:54:08
Jason
And, you know, until he changes his mind, he's just never going to have that success.
00:25:54:08 - 00:25:56:07
David
So, yeah.
00:25:56:09 - 00:26:03:07
Jason
the next thing we want to talk about was proprietary data is a key differentiator from your competition. tell me more about that, David.
00:26:03:09 - 00:26:38:09
David
Yeah. So, in a previous agency that I worked with, there was a large focus on data and the clients, you know, trying to find a way within their industry to to answer a question or a series of questions that were really plaguing the industry, or there just wasn't a lot of information about. So I I've seen that work many times, and I'm sure anybody that's listening, when you read a story, a lot of the time the headline is something along the lines of, you know, study shows x, y, z.
00:26:38:11 - 00:26:59:03
David
and if you're the owner of a study like that, that nobody else has that data that is incredibly attractive to a journalist, because not only do they have a unique angle with unique information, they have stuff to back it up from you as the source. And that lends a lot of credibility to anything going on in that industry for future opportunities.
00:26:59:05 - 00:27:26:11
David
and it sets you apart from your competition. if, you know, let's say another client, another agency is being pitched on a similar topic, but they don't have that. You do. The journalist is going to go with you more often than not because you're providing the information that backs up, you know, your assertions and a lot of the time that is what makes a really good article, not just, you know, anecdotal information.
00:27:26:16 - 00:27:35:03
David
If you have numbers and statistics to back up what you're saying and what you're bringing to the public, that is called for a journalist.
00:27:35:06 - 00:28:08:27
Jason
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think writing a book is also helpful if you're an individual or a thought leader and you want to, differentiate yourself from someone else's, a journalist is going to quote or trust, a source that's written a book that a source that hasn't yet done that. And, you know, to your point about having data, the other thing I advise clients a lot is, hey, even though you're a private corporation, if you're willing to act more like a public corporation and announce your earnings, announce your profit, be more transparent about, you know, certain KPIs and metrics that differentiate you.
00:28:08:29 - 00:28:30:24
Jason
you know, the more, the more substance you're giving to the journalist to cover. If you just say, hey, we're really fast growing company, but we don't want to tell you how quickly we're growing and we don't want to tell you revenue. Well, how do they really know you're a fast growing company? if you're in, if you say you're fast growing, but you won't disclose your employee headcount where it was and where it's going or where it is now, again, there's no substance there.
00:28:31:00 - 00:28:50:10
Jason
If you want to talk about how you've expanded into a new office, but you won't talk about square footage again, what's the journalist going to write about that you're really confident and happy with your growth? that's not a new story, right? But if you can tell a journalist up front, hey, we're looking at new office space. You know, we're currently in 5000ft², and we need 15.
00:28:50:15 - 00:29:01:21
Jason
We're currently in, you know, a quarter million square feet. We're looking for 1,000,000ft². Like, that kind of substance really helps the journalist, you know, get their arms around a story and be able to tell that story for you.
00:29:01:23 - 00:29:02:29
David
Absolutely.
00:29:03:01 - 00:29:21:28
Jason
You know, the other brand that does a really good job with this is the ADP, employment report. Right. So that start out is like, and I mention this because I think a lot of our audience will miss this. You've got you often have a lot of valuable data inside your own organization. ADP had payroll data for millions of companies, right.
00:29:22:01 - 00:29:51:23
Jason
And they realize this gold that they have internally about talking about employment growth, you know, our company's hiring or not. And by what percentage are they adding jobs. And here they are sitting on a mountain of information and not doing anything about it. So somebody had the smart idea about creating this report very similarly. You know, I tell clients, especially those in software and data and things like that, that you probably have some data internally that you don't even realize would be valuable to help set a finger on the pulse of the marketplace and the economy and what it's doing.
00:29:51:25 - 00:30:08:21
Jason
And, you know, their initial reaction is, oh, we can't share that data. It's our customer data. And I said, well, you can share it on a, on a very macro level, right? You don't have to tell me that, you know, actually a public relations added five employees this month. But you can tell me that generally speaking, PR firms grew by 6% this month.
00:30:08:23 - 00:30:28:29
Jason
And, you know, construction companies grew by this and manufacturing grew by that. That's the type of data that will get journalists excited, because you're giving them insight that no one else has. It's relatively fresh data, and I, I definitely don't think a majority of companies have that kind of data, but a lot of companies might be surprised what they could figure out in finagle.
00:30:28:29 - 00:30:34:11
Jason
That would be interesting, either to their profession or to the industry they they work in.
00:30:34:13 - 00:30:36:12
David
You know.
00:30:36:15 - 00:30:45:17
Jason
All right. So we want to, talk about respect for ethics and how key that is, in journalism. give me your take on that, David.
00:30:45:19 - 00:31:12:26
David
Yeah. So I guess you're the story you told us a few minutes ago is a perfect example. asking for favors. And I think this is the main issue that a lot of journalists run into is being pitched, a story. And, you know, it's predicated on the fact that they may have worked with somebody one time and they think, oh, I have it.
00:31:12:28 - 00:31:35:29
David
I have it locked. They owe me a favor or something. that's just not that is actually really bad. you're setting a precedent that gives not only a bad name to yourself and a bad name to the industry. so I think anytime that you're interacting with the media in any respect, be respectful. And ethics is a huge part of that.
00:31:36:01 - 00:32:03:27
David
you know, just like a journalist is, you know, promising to be ethical by not plagiarizing, being as accurate as possible. And, you know, basically just really defining everything they're doing to a tee. And on the publicist side and the industry side in general, we have to do the same thing on behalf of the clients where we're not trying to, you know, conflate these relationships that we have.
00:32:03:27 - 00:32:22:21
David
And you know, make these promises that, oh, I know this person. We're soon to get a future with The New York Times. Not only does that put you in a bad light, but then that gives them the opportunity to say, if you're saying this, I'm not going to work with you because, like, why are you putting me in this situation where you're telling everybody just because we've worked together?
00:32:22:21 - 00:32:46:12
David
One time I can give you this grand placement that you're looking for. So it all comes down to, having common sense when dealing with other people in a professional manner. And that unfortunately, it happens a lot. So just doing that will easily put you on the good side of a journalist. Even if your pitches aren't landing, they will never blacklist you.
00:32:46:12 - 00:32:55:04
David
They will never say, you know, stop contacting me. They will always be willing to to interact with you as long as you remain respectful.
00:32:55:06 - 00:33:13:08
Jason
David, I think every journalist is thanking you for sharing that, because it's so true. Right? Just, and I can't imagine I'd, you know, almost love to be a fly on the wall or see that person's face when they have just thought, well, I worked with this journalist once, so I know I can control what they cover in the future and then have that backfire on them.
00:33:13:09 - 00:33:35:02
Jason
You know, probably a rude awakening. But, you know, I learned early on when I, did the Public Relations Society of America has a program for accreditation and public relations, and they teach you, you know, it's unethical for you to promise to do anything that's outside of your control. Right? And so, David, you and I, we, you know, we do well in PR, but we don't own media outlets yet.
00:33:35:02 - 00:33:55:09
Jason
Right? Right. We're not Jeff Bezos. We're not buying, media outlets as we want to. And so if you don't own that media outlet, you cannot control what they're going to do. and you often can't even predict what they're going to do. You can certainly have relationships and collaborations. And if you have enough clout, maybe even negotiate how a story might get covered.
00:33:55:12 - 00:34:32:16
Jason
but at the end of the day, that that's the key thing. And in PR we are so dependent on third parties and external forces that we would be very foolish to make promises that we can't honor or keep, which would be therefore unethical. You know, every writer has a boss, every reporter has a boss, every editor, every producer has a boss, and I don't doesn't matter how high the food chain you get that somebody has a boss, and at the end of the day, if they have no boss within that organization's four walls, then they report to the board or they're ultimately accountable to the audience that they serve.
00:34:32:16 - 00:34:53:21
Jason
And then that audience starts getting disinterested in the type of content they're producing. They will tune away or not come back. And at the end of the day, that's what I think a lot of people are missing, is that journalists are accountable to their editors and their publisher and producers. and those people are accountable to the audience they serve.
00:34:53:21 - 00:35:15:03
Jason
And so if the audience is going away because they don't like the content or substance, then you know they're not going to come back. And so you better believe now, in the modern day that, journalists can and newsrooms can track traffic by article and engagement by article. They're starting to look and see what do our readers really want to hear about now doesn't always mean they follow that advice, but at least it's a voice in there.
00:35:15:06 - 00:35:35:09
Jason
And so I could be the best man at the New York Times, editors wedding. But if I don't bring him or her a story that lands with their audience that that that, fits their, their journalistic style or their editorial direction, they're not going to run it, you know, they're not going to run it. And so I think that's what a lot of people, mess up.
00:35:35:09 - 00:35:54:15
Jason
I saw somebody ranting on LinkedIn recently, David, I think you saw it too, where the person was saying, you know, the biggest crock in PR today is when either a PR person promises that they have, you know, 2000 media contacts or 100 media contacts. Of course, any good PR person is going to have a lot of media contacts.
00:35:54:17 - 00:36:13:13
Jason
but again, they can't control them or manipulate them or, you know, even, you know, pay them off to cover a story. Right? It's just not going to happen. so the variable I think a lot of people miss is no matter how good you are, it media relations, you still have to have a good story.
00:36:13:13 - 00:36:35:28
Jason
And one of the skills of media relations is creating or finding or developing, uncovering that story. but, you know, again, I could have every, you know, every journalist in America could know me and just because I call them doesn't mean they're going to do whatever I ask or run the story. It's got to check some boxes right?
00:36:36:00 - 00:36:49:06
Jason
we want to talk about staying ahead of the news cycle whenever possible. David and I know one of those things is kind of predicting what's happening. News jacking. what else should we talk about there?
00:36:49:09 - 00:37:21:22
David
Yeah. And, you know, before we dive into this, obviously nobody can predict the future. anything can happen at any moment. Yep. But for, you know, the client is the expert in their industry. As much as we can research on our time, they're the ones that are in the weeds. and know everything that's going on. So if there's any sense that they can, you know, somewhat forecast something might be coming or they have just an inclination based on past experiences that, a certain thing might happen.
00:37:21:24 - 00:37:46:01
David
I think it is always beneficial to sort of trust that instinct and use that as a way to reach out to a reporter and say, you know, hey, rooting on behalf of so-and-so. current market conditions are showing based off of his experience that x, y, z might happen in cases of any interest, you know, let me know, and I'd be happy to connect you both something like that.
00:37:46:03 - 00:38:08:01
David
And it can happen in a client meeting. It can happen. And a quick phone conversation just, you know, asking for a quick update on on how things on how this person is seeing, the industry at the moment. A nugget of information like that can lead to something big. And I'm not saying you're going to end up on, you know, CNN as the guy who predicted yesterday's market crash.
00:38:08:03 - 00:38:28:09
David
but maybe it could be, you know, you could be a leading voice in something to that effect. So that's kind of what I mean. when I say setting ahead of the news cycle, just be ready to pounce on any opportunity. And if you have any insight on what you know might be coming down the line, definitely let your team know.
00:38:28:12 - 00:38:48:25
Jason
Yeah. David, that's so true. And, you know, a common mistake I see people making, beyond the point you're making, which is, you know, a lot of times you can predict a little bit of the future by looking at editorial calendars, which, for those who don't know, is when a magazine, publishes a list of. Here are the topics we're going to feature each month for the next 12 months.
00:38:48:27 - 00:39:10:14
Jason
for, Media Relations Pro. That's like gold, right? That's like, you know, getting the the answers to the test ahead of time, right? Right. but, what a lot of people miss, especially early in their career, especially if they've never worked in news before, is those editorial calendars are meant to give you a heads up of something they're working on, you know, 2 or 3 months ahead of time.
00:39:10:16 - 00:39:37:23
Jason
So I've seen this happen. It's very sad to watch or hard to watch. But, you know, when a, PR cub is, pitching a story on July 1st that's supposed to run in their July magazine because they saw it in the July editorial calendar. And I'm like, you know, what you don't realize is that magazine went to bed, which is lingo in the industry for, you know, going to print basically, you know, a month or two or maybe even three, depending on the, the outlet ago.
00:39:37:25 - 00:39:57:12
Jason
So, you know, with editorial calendars, it's giving you kind of a, you know, the answers to the test, if you will, ahead of time. But you've got to leverage it very early. And, you know, and I don't think there's any such thing as being too early, like when those lists come out. I just saw one yesterday, which is really early August, really early to be the release.
00:39:57:12 - 00:40:13:12
Jason
Usually you're waiting to see those in November or December. Sometimes you have to wait till January. But when you see one and you know your your client or your company's a fit, that's the time to reach out and say, hey, it looks like in your, you know, March issue, you're going to be writing about this. When should I get in touch with you?
00:40:13:12 - 00:40:32:00
Jason
And who should I get in touch with and what kind of things are you looking for? Depending on the magazine, especially B2B magazines, they may be saying, hey, we'd like you to write related content to that, and we'll run a byline article and that's your chance to pounce. And in my experience, that article should be really good. So they say, hey, why don't you write something for us once a month?
00:40:32:02 - 00:40:45:13
Jason
Yeah, kind of thing. So, David, the other thing we want to talk about today was making the media's job as simple as possible. we've alluded to this quite a bit, but, bring it home for us, David.
00:40:45:15 - 00:41:12:06
David
Yeah. So this is mainly, honestly, anything you can think of being available? working with the reporter on their availability. You know, I've always said when we're scheduling interviews or working with a report on an opportunity, we are on their time. We are following, you know, their rules, their playbook on how everything should go. So always be willing to work with that.
00:41:12:08 - 00:41:42:19
David
And, for a publicist, you know, on the PR side, always have a plan B. So I've run into this situation many times where I might have a, an interview lined up, let's say 2 p.m. and I hear at 115, sorry, I'm not going to be able to make it now. I have completely ruined that opportunity. And at risk of losing this relationship because I committed to, saying, hey, my client's available here.
00:41:42:22 - 00:42:11:29
David
You know, there are going to be no issues. And then, you know, they cancel. I always have somebody waiting in the wings. Just just in case something like that ever happens. And I have only ever heard good things, from journalists whenever something like that occurs. But I have somebody waiting immediately. you know, so much of this is making a really good first impression that defines the longevity of that relationship.
00:42:12:01 - 00:42:41:23
David
And if you're willing to be available, if you're willing to give your availability right off the bat, not only for that day, but that week, maybe the next things like that are, you know, they set you apart from many others that, you know, you're honest. You're constantly in this back and forth email exchange trying to solidify details. I've always also tried to handle all the scheduling, from the background, not having another thing to add to the journalists plates.
00:42:41:23 - 00:43:09:10
David
So this could be, you know, if it's a Google Meet interview, I handle the scheduling of that, send the emails, make sure everything is good, and provide phone numbers. This is a back up. So anything that you can think of that would be necessary for a troubleshoot situation, definitely do it. It can really mean the difference between that reporter never working with you again, and you being the number one choice for a story that they're working on.
00:43:09:10 - 00:43:12:18
David
You know, aside from anybody else they may contact.
00:43:12:20 - 00:43:34:12
Jason
Yeah. David, I totally agree with you. you said that very well. there's somebody in our industry who talks about how improvising is like the number one skill you need to be successful in PR, even more so than relationship building and, you know, I think that that's something a lot of people miss because, you know, what is it?
00:43:34:16 - 00:43:57:05
Jason
The the plan can change. The goal can't. Right. And so the goal is to, you know, build this relationship with the media, get our clients a nice visibility. But the real goal is to maintain those relationships for the long term and not short term. And we've been able in this conversation to talk about ethics. And one of the big things about ethics is always doing what's in the best interest for everybody long term.
00:43:57:07 - 00:44:22:24
Jason
Right. And thinking long term is one of the best ways to, you know, grade your ethical behavior or judge your ethical behavior. You know, is this something that I'll be glad I did ten years, 20 years from now? Is this something that somebody could bring up 10 or 20 years from now? And I'd be embarrassed by it. and, what is, the other thing is, you know, the the best media pitch a journalist can receive is a story that's already done for them.
00:44:22:26 - 00:44:40:26
Jason
And what I mean by that, David, and, you know, is we're bringing them are everything they need. Here's the story. Here's the background. Here's three experts you can talk to or two experts in a study that was recently done, but you're giving them three sources they can use for their story, and you're handing them a visual element that they can use as well.
00:44:40:26 - 00:44:57:15
Jason
And look at that. I mean, that story to me sounds good already. because it's done right. I don't have to do a lot of chasing and seeking. And I've worked with David before, and he's proven he's reliable. And if he says he's got three sources lined up, I believe he does. Now he's just confessed he has a fourth and fifth source.
00:44:57:22 - 00:45:18:16
Jason
You know, lined up is a plan B, kind of thing. And, you know, the visual is very key. and, you know, you and I talked about this, you know, by the way, there's a great quote from Dan Martel that says 80% done by someone else is 100% freaking awesome. Right. And so if we can deliver that 80% from them, they're 80% more likely.
00:45:18:16 - 00:45:24:27
Jason
I'm making up a statistic on the fly. They're 80% more likely to cover our story than the story that's not already done for them.
00:45:24:29 - 00:45:25:28
David
Yeah.
00:45:26:00 - 00:45:44:25
Jason
And, you know, you and I faced an interesting thing, back in May where, you know, we had a journalist in Denver ready to do a story about one of our clients and their local locations and, you know, the client just could not deliver on the things that they thought they could deliver. And, you know, I think we all had to pivot to, you know, come up with a plan B for that.
00:45:44:25 - 00:45:57:18
Jason
And, and make that work out. And, for me, there's nothing worse than having a journalist who wants to do a story and a client who you thought wanted to do a story, but then, you know, can't put together the simple elements to pull that off. So that was certainly disappointing.
00:45:57:21 - 00:46:15:16
David
Yeah, yeah. It happens. You know, the best thing you can do is just be as prepared as possible on your end. Unfortunately, the situation just might be things don't work out. but if you're at least making the effort and the journalist sees that, I think, you know, you're well on your way.
00:46:15:18 - 00:46:26:07
Jason
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. All right, David, any other closing comments or thoughts? I think we had a great episode here, and I would just love to see if there's anything else you want to leave behind with our audience to think about.
00:46:26:09 - 00:46:48:15
David
no, I think just overall theme of today was, you know, understand that journalists have a hard job to do the same way. As, you know, people in the PR industry have a hard job to do, and it's up to us to make each other's jobs easier. So as long as we can do that, be respectful. While we do that, I think, you know, that relationship will only get better in the future.
00:46:48:17 - 00:47:05:02
Jason
Yeah, I totally agree. And my summary would be also that, you know, there's a cart before the horse scenario when you're doing media relations, like you've got to have your story all lined up. So a journalist can give you a clear yes or no answer. And just because you had your story all lined up and you did all your work, doesn't mean they're going to say yes.
00:47:05:04 - 00:47:23:00
Jason
And I think setting that expectation with your colleagues or your superiors, make sure they understand that too, is really important, because the last thing you want is them to just automatically perceive or you to paint a picture for them, that it's going to happen, then it doesn't happen. And they're upset that they made a sacrifice of time, energy and effort.
00:47:23:02 - 00:47:45:13
Jason
so I think that's important too, is just to understand that it's a very flexible, environment that we're in when we're doing media relations. There's an old cliche if it bleeds, it leads. And, you know, if there's a more newsworthy story and we'll put a link to the ten Elements of News, in this in the episode notes, if one of those ten elements ranks higher than the elements that you're pitching, then you're going to be disappointed.
00:47:45:13 - 00:48:02:16
Jason
And, you know, one last anecdote. All end on, David, is I remember one time our client was giving away a really big check. We had, you know, three local news vans in the parking lot who were going to, you know, cover it. and I think one was even going to go live because it was a pretty big check.
00:48:02:18 - 00:48:21:21
Jason
And all of a sudden I see these, these news trucks just put in reverse and backing out and leaving reporters who are already inside or walking out. I grabbed him, I said, hey, what's going on? Where's everybody going? Like, there's a hostage situation down the street where the closest news crew to that situation were being rerouted. There.
00:48:21:23 - 00:48:40:21
Jason
You you know, there's not a lot you can say in that moment. Well, aren't you going to stick around and watch our, pre-planned check presentation? You know? Of course not. Right. They're gone. And the sooner they get there, the better. So, you know, my point is that you can even have, you know, journalist in your hands, ready to write your story, and something can change at a moment's notice.
00:48:40:21 - 00:48:43:04
Jason
And you've just got to learn to pivot and improvise.
00:48:43:06 - 00:48:44:13
David
Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:44:16 - 00:48:59:22
Jason
So, David, I'm really glad we did this. Thank you for sharing your smarts and insights, as well as your experience with our audience today. if they want to, connect with you, David, give them, you know, your preferred way, maybe your email address. sure.
00:48:59:25 - 00:49:07:11
David
Yeah. So my email is David. David Triana at Axia PR dot com.
00:49:07:11 - 00:49:15:24
David
You know, happy to help you with anything you need. You know, the team here at Axia is great. And I'm sure we can help you with all of your PR needs. so. Yeah. Thanks again, Jason, for having me.
00:49:15:24 - 00:49:17:10
David
This is a lot of fun.
00:49:17:12 - 00:49:31:27
Jason
Yeah, I'm glad we did this. I think, we both. Mert, I know I learned something. I hope you learned something, too. And I know for sure our audience will learn something as well, because there's always ways to just get 1% better every day and your your PR efforts. And sometimes you hear a little reminder of something.
00:49:31:27 - 00:49:55:18
Jason
Gosh, I already knew that, but I'm not doing that. and those are some of my favorite nuggets. So. Well, with that, we say thank you to David for joining our episode today, and thank you for tuning in to on top of PR, where our goal is to help you stay on top of PR if you have a friend or colleague in the business that you think would benefit from this episode, please do us a favor and share it with them, either on your social media or through a DM of some sort.
00:49:55:18 - 00:50:09:05
Jason
I'm sure they'll thank you for sending it to them, and we will thank you as well for helping to spread the word about our podcast. if you have any particular requests on topics you'd like to hear more about, please drop us an email at podcast@axiapr.com or podcast@ontopofpr.com. With that, this is Jason Mudd signing off, wishing you well and thank you for listening.
00:50:09:05 - 00:51:04:26
Announcer
This has been On Top of PR with Jason Mud presented by ReviewMaxer. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode and check out Paso's ad on top of pr.com.
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About your host Jason Mudd
On Top of PR host, Jason Mudd, is a trusted adviser and dynamic strategist for some of America’s most admired brands and fastest-growing companies. Since 1994, he’s worked with American Airlines, Budweiser, Dave & Buster’s, H&R Block, Hilton, HP, Miller Lite, New York Life, Pizza Hut, Southern Comfort, and Verizon. He founded Axia Public Relations in July 2002. Forbes named Axia as one of America’s Best PR Agencies.
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