In this episode, Brooke Kruger joins On Top of PR host Jason Mudd to discuss the latest hiring trends in PR and communications, the importance of networking, and strategies for standing out in today’s competitive job market. Whether you’re a job seeker or a hiring manager, Brooke shares expert insights to help you navigate the evolving landscape of talent acquisition.
Tune in to learn more!
Our guest
Brooke Kruger, a seasoned executive recruiter and founder of KC Partners, has over 20 years of experience helping companies build high-performing leadership teams. Her expertise extends into the PR and communications world, where she has successfully placed top talent in roles that shape brand narratives and corporate messaging. With a keen understanding of industry trends, she connects organizations with strategic communicators who drive engagement and reputation management.
Watch the episode here:
Listen to the episode here:
5 things you’ll learn during the full episode:
- The latest trends in PR and communications hiring
- Why networking is essential for job seekers and hiring managers
- How to stand out in today’s competitive job market
- The best strategies for companies to attract top talent
- Common hiring mistakes and how to avoid them
About Brooke Kruger
Brooke Kruger, a seasoned executive recruiter and founder of KC Partners, has over 20 years of experience helping companies build high-performing leadership teams. Her expertise extends into the PR and communications world, where she has successfully placed top talent in roles that shape brand narratives and corporate messaging. With a keen understanding of industry trends, she connects organizations with strategic communicators who drive engagement and reputation management.
Quotables
— "Networking is critical in today’s job market for both candidates and hiring managers." — Brooke Kruger
— "Hiring managers have the upper hand right now, so they need to be strategic in selecting top talent." — Brooke Kruger
— "Candidates should optimize their LinkedIn presence — hiring decisions start there." — @JasonMudd9
— "Transparency in the hiring process leads to better experiences for both candidates and employers." — Brooke Kruger
— "A well-structured hiring process ensures you make the right talent decisions for long-term success." — @JasonMudd9
Resources
- Brooke Kruger on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brookechilenkruger
- KC Partners website: https://kc-partners.com/
Additional Episode Resources from Axia Public Relations:
- Listen to more episodes of the On Top of PR podcast.
- Find out more about Axia Public Relations.
Disclosure: One or more of the links we shared here might be affiliate links that offer us a referral reward when you buy from them.
Episode Highlights
- [00:08:00] The Power of Networking in Job Searches
"Many jobs are never even posted. Candidates should focus on networking and leveraging referrals to get noticed by hiring managers." - [00:15:45] How LinkedIn Can Make or Break Your Job Search
"Hiring managers look at LinkedIn before resumes. A strong, up-to-date profile can be the difference between getting an interview or being overlooked." - [00:17:00] Common Mistakes Candidates Make in Interviews
"Candidates need to be fully prepared, research the company, and have a strong LinkedIn presence—hiring decisions start there." - [00:23:15] How Hiring Managers Can Improve Their Process
"The best hiring processes are efficient, structured, and clear. Transparency leads to a better experience for both the employer and the candidate." - [00:27:00] Why Storytelling is the Most Valuable Skill in PR Hiring
"The best candidates know how to tell a compelling story—not just about their clients, but about themselves and their career journey.
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Production sponsor: Axia Public Relations, one of America’s Best PR Agencies, according to Forbes Magazine
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Transcript
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:09
Jason
This episode is brought to you by Audible. Enjoy 30 days free of Audible Premium Plus by going to ontopofpr.com/audible.
00:00:09:09 - 00:00:19:08
Announcer
Welcome to On Top of PR with Jason Mudd, presented by ReviewMaxer.
00:00:19:08 - 00:00:33:17
Jason
Hello and welcome to On Top of PR. I’m your host Jason Mudd with Axia Public Relations. Today I'm joined by Brooke Kruger. Brooke is a seasoned executive recruiter and founder of KC partners. She has more than 20 years of experience helping companies build high performing leadership teams.
00:00:33:19 - 00:00:52:24
Jason
Her expertise extends into PR and communications world, where she has successfully placed top talent and roles that shape brand narratives and corporate messaging. With a keen understanding of industry trends, she connects organizations with strategic communicators who drive engagement and reputation management. Brooke, welcome to the show. We're glad to have you here.
00:00:52:26 - 00:00:54:12
Brooke
Thanks for having me.
00:00:54:15 - 00:01:09:11
Jason
Yeah. And so today we're going to talk about communications, hiring trends, and what it takes to recruit, employees in the, in this job market, to get a job, keep a job, everything going on in the communications hiring world. Can we handle that in one episode, do you think?
00:01:09:13 - 00:01:12:24
Brooke
I mean, we can. Sure. Try the lots going on right now. So.
00:01:12:26 - 00:01:37:23
Jason
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, we were talking before we pressed record about, you know, the pandemic times and how that was, you know, basically five years ago when we were in the early stages of the pandemic and how the world would change then and has changed since. And employment is one of those things that has really been disruptive, disrupted, all like it feels like holistically in 360 degrees, you know, during this time.
00:01:37:23 - 00:01:48:17
Jason
So for the record, we're recording this in March of 2025. And, Brooke, why don't you set the stage with kind of telling us what you're currently seeing in the marketplace right now?
00:01:48:19 - 00:02:14:22
Brooke
Absolutely. So I think what we need to do is kind of look back in the past five years, from fall 2020 to May 2022, it was one of the busiest hiring markets for comms professionals. In mid-summer, late fall of 2022, the tech, layoffs started and they just didn't stop. 2023 was a tough, tiring year. 2024 was still a tough hiring year, and this is all in communications.
00:02:14:24 - 00:02:36:23
Brooke
People were unsettled about what was going to happen with the election. And so now we're here in 2025 and I can report that comms hiring is busier than it was a year ago. There were lots of stops and starts in the past couple of years, but we are now seeing steady communications. Hiring, that said, is an extremely competitive market for talent.
00:02:36:23 - 00:02:43:26
Brooke
There are a lot of people looking for jobs, and so the employees definitely have the upper hand in the current market.
00:02:43:28 - 00:02:50:18
Jason
So when you say a lot of people looking for jobs, you're saying there's a lot of job openings that people are looking to place to hire candidates for?
00:02:50:20 - 00:03:07:01
Brooke
Well, no, there's there are less jobs that are open right now and there are more people that are looking. So hiring managers have the upper hand right now and they can really focus on getting, you know, the perfect candidate. But it's a very crowded market, okay.
00:03:07:07 - 00:03:08:25
Jason
Crowded meaning lots of candidates.
00:03:09:01 - 00:03:24:10
Brooke
Lots of candidates. Okay. And so what I see, I run a recruiting firm, Casey Partners, and my clients come to me and say, this is exactly what we want. These are the skill sets we want. These are the skill sets they need. And they should be able to find this in this market.
00:03:24:12 - 00:03:39:24
Jason
So I'm seeing a lot of candidates post on social media, their frustrations that companies are hiring, but they're not really hiring. They've got jobs posted, but they're not really interviewing or things like that one. Do you see that to what would you say to those people?
00:03:39:26 - 00:04:11:17
Brooke
So yes, I think a lot of jobs are not publicly listed. They are networked or hired through a recruiter like myself or through internal referrals. And I think when the jobs are posted, they are getting a massive amount of interest in there. So it's hard to get through the, to get through the crowd. So I think if if candidates see a job posted at a company, they should try to find an internal referral and meeting somebody who works there, who could recommend them for the job.
00:04:11:20 - 00:04:16:11
Jason
That sounds so old fashioned. The same advice I was given, you know, 30 something years ago, right?
00:04:16:11 - 00:04:34:28
Brooke
And it hasn't changed. And networking is critical in this market. Networking is critical for candidates looking for jobs, but also for hiring managers. If you're looking to hire someone for your firm or if you're looking for your company, you want to be networking with people. And who do people think are good? Who whose work do you respect?
00:04:35:01 - 00:04:46:16
Jason
Yeah. Yeah. Good. So do you sense that there's companies out there for some reason, advertising positions, but not really entertaining positions?
00:04:46:18 - 00:04:59:08
Brooke
I think I get the sense that there's people like that. I think, you know, it's all perception, right? People, if they have a job, they want to post it, or maybe they think they're going to have a job coming down and they kind of want to test the market to see who's going to apply.
00:04:59:11 - 00:04:59:22
Jason
Right.
00:04:59:28 - 00:05:04:26
Brooke
And see the interest. Yeah. HeadCount has been on hold for so long.
00:05:05:00 - 00:05:05:24
Jason
Right.
00:05:05:27 - 00:05:11:27
Brooke
In in the communications field. And people are getting excited about that. And they may not necessarily be ready.
00:05:11:29 - 00:05:32:10
Jason
Yeah. And we've tested and we found it. It's hard for us to do this. Well we think but we've put out job postings and we've tried to put in bold at the top, not currently interviewing, simply just collecting candidates so that when we're ready to interview, we've got people already in place and we're ready to go. But you still hear from people like, hey, I applied and I haven't heard anything yet.
00:05:32:10 - 00:05:33:25
Brooke
And yes.
00:05:33:27 - 00:05:41:05
Jason
So and so every time we've tried that, we've just walked away and said, okay, it just doesn't seem to work the way we want it to work.
00:05:41:08 - 00:06:00:01
Brooke
Yes. I mean, I think I appreciate your transparency and honesty and I think that is should be applauded. I think people are there's so many people who are looking looking for jobs and I and and they want to be successful. So, you know, they're trying whatever they can to get a job.
00:06:00:01 - 00:06:03:05
Jason
So and you can't blame them. I mean, you.
00:06:03:05 - 00:06:14:11
Brooke
Know, I cannot blame that at all. It's very it's, it's it's a very tough hiring market. And I'm talking to people all day long who are out of work. And, you know, these are people who've never been out of work in their life and they're struggling to find a job. So yeah.
00:06:14:11 - 00:06:34:23
Jason
Yeah, I mean, you know, you for many people, their, their job is a sense of purpose in their life. And. Okay, for most people, we depend on income to be able to survive. And when you take those things away from people and it's it's get it gets frustrating or it's been a while and they grow impatient, the emotions start to take over and the.
00:06:34:23 - 00:06:37:22
Brooke
100% and the confidence level down.
00:06:37:24 - 00:06:38:24
Jason
Yes yes.
00:06:38:24 - 00:06:52:24
Brooke
Yeah. Yes. And it's in this job market. Again, employers can have their pick of who they want to hire. And so candidates need to be fully prepared and interview well. And do their research and put their best self forward.
00:06:52:26 - 00:07:05:12
Jason
Yeah. So what would you say to someone right now who's looking for, a job and maybe they're maybe they're frustrated, maybe they're not yet frustrated, but kind of what would be some thoughts you would share with them?
00:07:05:14 - 00:07:26:19
Brooke
Well, I think, it's critical to kind of understand your skill set, what you like to do, what motivates you and try to look for jobs that are going to, appeal to those things. I think, you know, LinkedIn is so critical. You need to have a LinkedIn profile. You need to be active on your LinkedIn profile. You need to be content.
00:07:26:20 - 00:07:49:22
Brooke
You don't need to be constantly posting things, but updating things and just, you know, liking things and be an active member. Have a resume that that attaches well to your LinkedIn. You know, they're very similar. If you have something on your LinkedIn, you have it on your resume and you need to, be networking. I think for people who've been working for a long time and then are suddenly out of a job, I think it can be overwhelming.
00:07:49:22 - 00:08:09:29
Brooke
So set some structure to your day, to your week, have some guidelines or some goals. You know, do have three conversations a week. Reach out to people. I mean, obviously if recruiters contacted you for, you know, in the past, reconnect with them, you know, let people know you're looking puts, you know, put yourself out there that goes a long way.
00:08:10:02 - 00:08:27:05
Jason
Yeah, I love that. And I'm just going to step on my soapbox for just a minute, because to me, as a hiring manager, you know, I've hired hundreds of people in my career and I'm always looking at LinkedIn first, I want to see LinkedIn before I see a resume. Because LinkedIn follows a consistent format. I know how to set quickly.
00:08:27:05 - 00:08:45:19
Jason
I know what I'm looking for, and I feel like and I know I'm wrong because I've seen other people, you know, post, on LinkedIn or have content on LinkedIn. But I sense that, you know, if you're going to put on LinkedIn, there's a higher percentage that it's actually accurate and truthful. Because there's the social crowd. Right?
00:08:45:19 - 00:08:46:05
Jason
So yeah.
00:08:46:05 - 00:08:46:18
Brooke
I hope.
00:08:46:18 - 00:09:02:18
Jason
Yeah. And things like, yeah. Now I, I will say I've had people who used to work at us who have taken a lot more credit for work than I would give them, you know, so it still happens, right? I'm not totally unaware of that. But, you know, at least there's a little bit more, I would say accountability for what you might put on LinkedIn.
00:09:02:18 - 00:09:11:27
Jason
Or at least you have to think twice about exaggerating something. But, you know, I meet, entry level professionals and college students. They're like, well, I'm not on LinkedIn. And I'm like, well, you have to.
00:09:11:27 - 00:09:12:26
Brooke
Be used to be on LinkedIn.
00:09:13:00 - 00:09:32:01
Jason
Absolutely have to be. And I tell them, just like you said, you don't have to post every day. You don't have to comment. But I when I when I search for you on LinkedIn, I won't be able to find you quickly. I might have met you at an event when you're with your boss, and I don't want to make an offer in front of your boss, but I don't know how it's to see you or find you ever again, right, exactly.
00:09:32:01 - 00:09:44:23
Jason
And so then I will go on Lincoln and I, and I do this a lot. I'll say, hey, I saw you got this award. I saw you on this list. I saw you speak. I met you this conference. You know, if you're ever in the market for a job, we should talk. And I. But I'm very clear.
00:09:44:23 - 00:09:54:09
Jason
We don't have an opening right now or, you know, whatever it might be, and then just building that bridge. But if I can't find them on LinkedIn, I don't know where I'm going to find them. Instagram. You know, like a duck. Doesn't seem.
00:09:54:09 - 00:09:56:06
Brooke
Right. No no no no.
00:09:56:08 - 00:09:57:02
Jason
Yeah.
00:09:57:04 - 00:10:16:23
Brooke
I think LinkedIn and LinkedIn is your professional social media. So it needs to be updated to be accurate. You need to be on it. And it's I mean I use LinkedIn always to find candidates. Yeah. You know we have people in our network and in our database. But I'm always when I send a resume to my client, I also send their LinkedIn profile.
00:10:16:25 - 00:10:23:06
Jason
Yeah, 100%. And it's so easy to use. Anybody can use it. You're not worried about formatting and PDFs or.
00:10:23:10 - 00:10:23:25
Brooke
No.
00:10:23:28 - 00:10:34:21
Jason
Word to PDF and and all that stuff. And I use it all the time to be like, okay, what was the name of that guy that I met at this event? He's from this city. He does this because I'm referring him to somebody you know or heard of somebody.
00:10:34:21 - 00:10:39:28
Brooke
Yes, yes or yes. And when you refer people, I always put their LinkedIn profile on. Yes, absolutely.
00:10:40:00 - 00:10:48:01
Jason
And then the other soapbox item for me is if you're going to ask me to connect on LinkedIn, take a moment and explain how we met or why you're what we're connecting.
00:10:48:03 - 00:10:50:13
Brooke
Another pro tip, another project.
00:10:50:15 - 00:11:01:17
Jason
Other than just a random person wants to, you know, connect with me. I'm going to ignore it or the person that just says, oh my gosh, you're so accomplished in your career. Let's connect. I'm like, okay, but who are you and.
00:11:01:20 - 00:11:05:20
Brooke
What do you want? Right? Yes, exactly. No. You're I'm always like, no, your ask.
00:11:05:22 - 00:11:09:06
Jason
Yeah. Because my DMs are about to blow up with your solicitations right?
00:11:09:08 - 00:11:11:21
Brooke
Yes, yes. So yes.
00:11:11:23 - 00:11:31:02
Jason
Good. And then, you you said something earlier, you kind of recounting as we got started. I'm going to take a quick look at my notes here, and I appreciate you kind of setting the table for where we've been in the last few years. Last night I was in an economic forum and somebody mentioned, you know, that there was, you know, a traditional recession, but they didn't call it a recession.
00:11:31:02 - 00:11:49:02
Jason
And it caught my eyes. But, you know, by definition, recession used to be two consecutive months of reduced GDP. And we had that. And, I think the person said in, 2023, I think it was around June, as I recall. I looked it up last night while they were speaking because I was seeing myself. I didn't really hear about that.
00:11:49:02 - 00:11:52:16
Jason
But I can also show, you know, where our business was impacted in that way.
00:11:52:16 - 00:11:52:25
Brooke
Yeah.
00:11:52:27 - 00:12:05:12
Jason
For sure. And so that was very interesting to see. You mentioned earlier, that I think you said in fall 2020 demand for from fall 2020 to May 2023.
00:12:05:14 - 00:12:06:15
Brooke
2022.
00:12:06:17 - 00:12:13:13
Jason
- Okay. Demand for PR, I'll just say resources was very high.
00:12:13:15 - 00:12:35:14
Brooke
Absolutely. Everybody was hiring. Everybody was staffing up. Everyone was bringing on agencies, they were increasing budgets, and it the end or the start of summer of 2022, things started slowing down. I, I'm in the San Francisco Bay area. I have a lot of tech clients. Tech started tightening their budgets and doing massive layoffs they hadn't done for years.
00:12:35:16 - 00:12:42:25
Brooke
And that kind of started it. I mean, the tech like the government layoffs today or what we saw the tech layoffs in 2022 and 2023.
00:12:42:27 - 00:13:00:18
Jason
Yeah, 100%, 100%. My theory, first of all, we saw incredible demand for PR services. You know, the pandemic hit a lot of companies like can't do PR anymore and they're done. I'm like, this is when you need PR the most. That leaned on us to make those stakeholders know we're still in business and business as usual, and we have these people.
00:13:00:18 - 00:13:10:12
Brooke
Oh, and then it's like pandemic, then vaccination, then, you know, return to work like all those major decisions that affected, you know, their company.
00:13:10:12 - 00:13:20:01
Jason
So there was a point where our business was down and the next thing you know, was an all time high, and demand was so high that we were able to increase our prices significantly because people couldn't find people to it.
00:13:20:03 - 00:13:22:00
Brooke
To. Yeah. Because I could see that.
00:13:22:05 - 00:13:38:19
Jason
They couldn't find, you know, the agencies to do the work. And, I mean, we didn't have a waitlist, but we were actively staffing and struggling to keep up with demand, which was fabulous, you know, for, for that season. And then, as I mentioned, we saw where the the economy slowed down. My theory on the tech layoffs was always this.
00:13:38:19 - 00:13:57:06
Jason
And tell me, if you know, feel free to tell me your opinion. But my opinion was always that these big tech companies had the ability, for lack of a better word, to hoard staff. Right? And keep people and keep hiring people when there was these other shortages happening, all over the world so that they had a roster, they had a bench and they had everything they needed.
00:13:57:12 - 00:14:15:22
Jason
And then once that once that cooled off a little bit, that's when they were eas easily able to shed, a lot of the people they hired. And my other theory is a lot of the people they hired at top dollar right, to meet the market demands. Yeah. Now did. Yep. Required to pay such a high salary. Am I, from your view, in Silicon Valley.
00:14:15:25 - 00:14:17:12
Jason
Is that accurate? Would you.
00:14:17:14 - 00:14:36:25
Brooke
I I, I would, I would agree with those theories. I think everybody was staffing up. They were getting people they were candidates were demanding high salaries. And then, you know, when the market slowed down a little bit, they they had to let go. I also think it was a complete domino effect. Once, once the big tech companies started laying out, every company was like, oh, well, we should layoff.
00:14:36:27 - 00:14:41:11
Brooke
Yeah. Once one person did that, I mean, it just kept going and going and going and going.
00:14:41:14 - 00:14:58:17
Jason
When you look at tech companies, what do they have? They've got a lot of, data. They've got a lot of analysts. And they can use that data to make informed decisions. And so yeah, sometimes you wonder if they know something we don't know yet. But my point was, is that, you know, I during that time, I didn't paranoia, I didn't panic.
00:14:58:20 - 00:15:16:21
Jason
I wasn't paranoid. I stayed focused on the idea that, you know, these people were hiring and hiring and hiring just to make sure they had employees, I think, and then because they can afford to do that, you know, these are huge corporations that, you know, they've got more employees in one department than most big companies have, you know, kind of thing.
00:15:16:21 - 00:15:40:09
Jason
So that was always my working theory there. And so, so talk to me about so, our audience is mostly brands, marketing directors and, and, and PR managers, thinking about them. What advice would you give to them if they are actively hiring or maybe about to hire, thinking about hiring? Like what? What do they need to know?
00:15:40:09 - 00:15:43:20
Jason
What's the reality of the marketplace for employers right now?
00:15:43:23 - 00:16:01:26
Brooke
So I think they again, they do have the upper hand. And so when they when a lot of people have been waiting a long time for headcount for years and headcount is opening up. And so when they get this headcount, they want to get it right. And they really need to look at like what is going to be the best pull, the best hire that's going to support our existing team and improve and grow.
00:16:01:26 - 00:16:16:25
Brooke
So really, you know, if you get a lot of times people are like, oh my God, we got the headcount, let's hire immediately. But really think about how they want to grow their team and what's going to be the right role. What I am seeing a lot as a result of this, I am seeing a lot of hire me.
00:16:16:27 - 00:16:41:16
Brooke
Hiring managers extend their interview process because they want more stakeholders involved. I don't necessarily think they need to do that in every case. I think when when you do get the headcount and you're ready to hire what it really have your interview process, you know, tight. Who do the candidates need to meet that with? How many rounds is there an assignment?
00:16:41:19 - 00:16:53:10
Brooke
And so you really want to, be empathetic to the candidates interviewing and really educate them on what's really going to happen. And I think that makes it better. Our interview process overall.
00:16:53:12 - 00:17:17:02
Jason
Yeah. I remember, getting advice from agency associations I belong to. And therefore ultimately that advice rolls downhill to our clients when we give them advice. But the advice was, hey, you might have had a really extended hiring process before, you know, while, while, you know, people were hiring like, crazy, right? And you're like, now you've got to either compress that timeline or eliminate steps.
00:17:17:02 - 00:17:25:15
Jason
Whichever one you have to do to get to that. Are are we at a point now where, that's still important, but not as important? Brook.
00:17:25:17 - 00:17:49:26
Brooke
Yes, I think, each company is unique, and I think you really have to look at it, holistically. Like, who are the key stakeholders? This this hire really needs to meet. What is my what does our company require of the interview process? Who do they need to meet. And again, just really tighten that up. I do not think that people should just meet, go through an interview process and just meet a ton of people just to do it.
00:17:49:26 - 00:18:07:28
Brooke
There needs to be a strategic point in talking to each person. I love when companies say, okay, we're going to have this person meet for people, this person's going to focus on leadership. The next person's going to focus on culture, give somebody something to run with. And so everybody is not, you know, having the exact same conversation.
00:18:07:28 - 00:18:22:01
Brooke
They're screening the people for screening the candidates for different skill sets. And then I do think, you know, the hiring manager should also always be the first point of contact, but they also should do a check in before the final interview as well with whoever their boss would be.
00:18:22:01 - 00:18:46:18
Announcer
You're listening to on top of PR with your host, Jason Mudd. Jason is a trusted advisor to some of America's most admired and fastest growing brands. He is the managing partner at Axia Public Relations, a PR agency that guides news, social and web strategies for national companies. And now, back to the show.
00:18:46:18 - 00:18:56:14
Jason
And so when they're meeting with... we’ll call them, they're having these topical interviews. So the person interviewing them be an internal or some other expert on that topic as well. I mean, that seems obvious, but I.
00:18:56:15 - 00:19:15:02
Brooke
Just think it could or it just however you want to break it down, will each company like what are let's look at the values of your company and what's important and what are the themes upon every hire. And maybe break it down. That way, if there's four core principles, let's have everybody focus on one principle. The hiring managers obviously can focus on the skill set.
00:19:15:04 - 00:19:23:00
Jason
Right? Right are gone are the days when, you know, like the Ritz-Carlton of the worlds and stuff like that would make you do 7 to 10 interviews.
00:19:23:03 - 00:19:43:16
Brooke
No, those actually are very common now. And candidates are getting very frustrated because they feel like there's just always one more step or the goalpost is changing. But from the from the hiring managers perspective, again, they finally got the headcount and they want to get it right. And they want to make sure all the stakeholders are involved. So there's no pushback.
00:19:43:16 - 00:20:03:00
Brooke
But when you have more people interviewing, it's hard to get, consensus, right. Everyone has an opinion, so I like it. I like a tight process. I mean, my ideal process would be you meet with the hiring manager, the hiring manager, then put you through a panel in a row, whether that's on site or through zoom. Now that's three people.
00:20:03:02 - 00:20:31:10
Brooke
If you, the next would be understanding work product. A lot of people are doing assignments. I'm not a huge fan of assignments that take a ton of time and energy from someone who's already, you know, employed or looking for a job that I am a fan of, trying to understand how candidates think. And so giving them an exercise, whether they preplan for it or asking them a question during the interview process to help understand how they would approach a problem.
00:20:31:13 - 00:20:57:04
Brooke
Yeah. You could also ask for work samples as well or greatest hits. I love that when clients are like hey send me your three greatest hits and why you chose those, I think that really shows okay, this is a project or a media hit or a plan that the candidate was really excited about. And then once you're through the project stage, they're usually will be a final interview, whether that's the CEO, whether that's the, you know, head of the function.
00:20:57:06 - 00:21:16:15
Brooke
And then, you know, after that there's references. I, I will say also, references are critical right now in this market. Hiring manager putting a lot of emphasis on references. It used to be just a thing where people just passed along. A couple people now, hiring managers or diving deep.
00:21:16:17 - 00:21:33:07
Jason
Good. Yeah, I think that's great. You know, you said the three greatest hits. I don't use that terminology, but I borrowed that concept, you know, 20 years ago from, David Ogilvy, in his book confessions of an ad. Man. That's something he said that he does is he says, I only want to see three things from you.
00:21:33:07 - 00:21:50:21
Jason
Then they're your three favorites in your book. And I want you to tell me what you like about them. And he said he uses that to discern their taste and to make sure that they have, you know, good taste in design or whatever it might be, because the things are probably not most proud of are the ones that started out with them doing it.
00:21:50:21 - 00:22:11:26
Jason
And then somebody messed it. It messed with it. Yeah. Got it to here. And now I might think this looks great. And that candidate thinks it looks terrible. So I want to see the things that they're most proud of or the things that stand out to them in their book. And then when you talked about media coverage, what I've learned you have to ask about media coverage is, okay, this article looks great on wherever website or whatever it is, but who is your client?
00:22:12:03 - 00:22:27:14
Jason
You know, like because there if good journalism has at least three sources, right. That's kind of a standard. And so how do I know who your client was in this, kind of article? And, and candidly, you know, what was their role in getting that piece of earned media coverage if they sat next to the person who pitched it?
00:22:27:14 - 00:22:28:16
Jason
I don't know how much that counts.
00:22:28:16 - 00:22:41:13
Brooke
Right? Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I think when you can go in and yes, it's like, oh, this is okay. This is for example, like, hey, this is, you know, tell me your three greatest hits, right? They give a story. Okay. Who did you work for? Who was the reporter you worked with on it? How did the story come out?
00:22:41:13 - 00:22:59:05
Brooke
Who came? You know, who came up with the story idea? Oh. That's interesting. How'd you guys think about that? Like, really? I think as a candidate, you come to the table. You really have to know your story. The number one skill. People always ask me, what are what are, you know, what's the number one skill for a candidate right now?
00:22:59:09 - 00:23:24:19
Brooke
It's being a good storyteller. So you need to be able to tell your client stories or your employer story. But you also need to be able to tell your story. What makes you tick, what makes you successful? What are your interests? What are your motivations? Like you can you can tell a lot about that. The other thing, I think going back to your point about Ogilvy, a question I like to ask as well is, what are three brands that really resonate with them and why?
00:23:24:21 - 00:23:34:06
Brooke
And they could say anything from, you know, Starbucks to Walmart to, you know, open eye. But you really get to understand why.
00:23:34:08 - 00:23:58:05
Jason
Yeah that's good. You know so I think about what those are really good questions. And I like your questions that are specific to actual work as opposed to, you know, you show up to an interview and they're like, tell me about a time where there was friction between you and a coworker and the supervisor got involved or something, and I'm like, I don't remember those things because, you know, I generally don't have problems at work.
00:23:58:05 - 00:23:58:27
Jason
And I'm.
00:23:58:29 - 00:24:01:22
Brooke
Probably it's very, you know.
00:24:01:28 - 00:24:02:14
Jason
It's very.
00:24:02:21 - 00:24:03:01
Brooke
Simple.
00:24:03:04 - 00:24:05:27
Jason
How to answer that in this exact moment. You know.
00:24:06:00 - 00:24:26:06
Brooke
I think people in general like to talk about themselves. Right. And so if you get them, if you get them on a track, we're talking about a project that they did that was exciting to them and something they felt accomplished. You can really understand what makes them tick. And that's I'm all about that like I did. I was on the PR side for six years.
00:24:26:06 - 00:24:50:05
Brooke
I worked on the PR agency from 99 to 2005. I pivoted to recruiting for comms people in 2005 and started my own firm in 2009. So I have spent 20 plus years in the communications industry. And again, I understand, the jobs that I'm hiring for because I worked in MRI, reported to the people and it's I just always want to understand people's motivations for what they want to do and why they did it.
00:24:50:05 - 00:24:59:29
Brooke
So it's important to really peel the onions back when you're interviewing and understanding, you know who this person is and what they're going to be excited about.
00:25:00:01 - 00:25:18:01
Jason
I interviewed early in my career for a position. They asked me what my favorite vegetable was, and off the cuff I just said, potato because you can cook it and prepare it. Many different ways, and it almost always tastes good. And immediately they said, oh, that's not the answer we're looking for. And I literally and I didn't get the job.
00:25:18:01 - 00:25:24:10
Jason
And like to this day I wonder if because I didn't say some other kind of vegetable. And what kind of question is that to just throw it.
00:25:24:10 - 00:25:41:22
Brooke
I think that you just I okay. So that's interesting you say that because there's a, there's questions like as I've seen through the years, like, yeah, one time I had somebody ask my candidate, like, what'd you do this weekend. And they were like, oh, you know I did a yoga class. Okay. Why is your yoga studio the best studio you've ever been to.
00:25:41:24 - 00:25:47:17
Brooke
And I think they when people ask those questions they're just trying to figure out how you process information.
00:25:47:20 - 00:25:48:08
Jason
Yeah.
00:25:48:10 - 00:26:00:28
Brooke
Yeah. And so if you, you know it just you could have answered it too quickly, which I would have respected. I would have respected your answer because you were decisive. So to me, I would have liked that. But yeah.
00:26:01:00 - 00:26:07:02
Jason
Well the, the what they told me was potato means you're not a good fit for this job. Like that's exactly what they told me. So I'm just.
00:26:07:03 - 00:26:10:28
Brooke
Like it's too like it's too it's too vanilla of an answer. Like it's basic.
00:26:11:00 - 00:26:14:07
Jason
I still don't know. I think if I would have said broccoli, maybe they would have said yes.
00:26:14:09 - 00:26:26:01
Brooke
I think they you I think everything happens for a reason. And you got a very successful career. And if they said no, if they said no because if a potato was the answer, then I don't know if that's the right fit for you.
00:26:26:05 - 00:26:36:15
Jason
Oh, absolutely. That's exactly right. So all right, Brooke, so you outlet thank you for sharing. Kind of your steps for what would be a good, interviewing process.
00:26:36:15 - 00:26:42:28
Jason
Are there just off the cuff kind of mistakes you see people making, as they're doing, interviews?
00:26:43:00 - 00:27:06:04
Brooke
I see a lot of mistakes. Right now. Yeah, I post a lot on LinkedIn, as well when I try to like summarizing. So from a candidate perspective, the biggest mistakes they're not preparing, they're not available. They're not flexible. If, you know, if you're interviewing for a job, you need to be available. You need to make your schedule work as much as you can.
00:27:06:04 - 00:27:30:01
Brooke
Everybody has a lot of stuff going on, but you have to show interest, right. And from a hiring managers perspective, going back to like, I like a clean, transparent process. This is the process. This is what is going to happen. And these are the steps. I think honesty is always the answer. And if can't, you know, tell candidates, hey, we have 3 or 4 people in process.
00:27:30:04 - 00:27:50:10
Brooke
We're seeing people through the process like keep everybody informed on the steps. So it's a good process. What I'm hearing, a lot of which I think is is terrible, is ghosting. Companies don't give back to candidates who are in the process if they're not, if it just let them know they are not a fit and you appreciated their time, but you will not be moving forward.
00:27:50:10 - 00:27:56:21
Brooke
You can say that in a in a nicer way, but you ghosting is never the answer.
00:27:56:23 - 00:27:58:07
Jason
Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:58:10 - 00:28:16:08
Brooke
And that is become a common thing because everybody's too busy like it. So many candidates come to me and they're like, yeah, I interviewed for had all these interviews, but like I never heard back. I'm like, no one said that you were part of the process or like, no, or the process or no one said the you weren't going to move forward like, no, I just saw somebody else got hired, so I assumed it didn't.
00:28:16:11 - 00:28:19:01
Brooke
And these are people who took their time out of their day to interview.
00:28:19:04 - 00:28:37:00
Jason
Oh yeah, I, I see that anecdotally a lot from my network of people who talk about those things happening. So yeah, I and I, I completely empathize with that. I, I would say the only exception for us is when we don't get back to people is when they just apply to like, you know, and.
00:28:37:03 - 00:28:48:11
Brooke
Yeah, I mean, that's that's different though. This is somebody who's had an interview. You know, a lot of companies have a form like, thank you for your interest will get back to you. Do we want to move forward? But these are people who had 2 or 3 interviews.
00:28:48:11 - 00:29:07:07
Jason
Yeah, absolutely. If you invite them into your organization, whether that's through a video chat like this or through, you know, an actual on site, presentation, I think you owe them, you know, the utmost information. Of course, you know, maybe they don't tell you. Maybe don't tell them that they didn't get the job.
00:29:07:10 - 00:29:09:08
Brooke
Because they because they said potato.
00:29:09:10 - 00:29:14:13
Jason
Oh, yeah. But that too, but maybe, you know, maybe you wait until the other person accept your offer.
00:29:14:13 - 00:29:16:03
Brooke
Yes. Yes, there's there's.
00:29:16:05 - 00:29:17:26
Jason
Absolutely not a candidate at all.
00:29:17:26 - 00:29:40:05
Brooke
Right. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of strategies around that. About about that. But, always, you know, I think you always close people out of the process. And, I think that's critical. And the other thing is you whether you hire this person or not, your goal is employer and through the interview process is to have everyone have a good positive candidate experience.
00:29:40:07 - 00:29:47:26
Brooke
You want people to leave and be like, oh my gosh, I loved everyone there. They didn't end up hiring me, but I thought it was a great place to work.
00:29:47:28 - 00:29:55:16
Jason
Yeah. Because then they'll want to come back. They'll tell their friends yeah. If you're in you know like us an agency, maybe they'll work with you on, on the other side.
00:29:55:18 - 00:30:16:07
Brooke
The client or I had two people, for an agency search last year and one, one person didn't get it, and they ended up going in-house and referred, or brought that agency on because they had such a positive interview experience, and they didn't get they didn't even get it, but they were like, I had such a good experience and I think they'd be a great firm.
00:30:16:07 - 00:30:22:10
Jason
So yeah, we've had that same experience here. And, you know, past interns go on to get corporate jobs and.
00:30:22:15 - 00:30:23:19
Brooke
100% one.
00:30:23:19 - 00:30:29:16
Jason
Of our interns is a chief marketing officer with a pretty big company. And the first thing she did was call me, you know.
00:30:29:16 - 00:30:36:20
Brooke
And I was exactly right. It's I'm all about. I'm all about the long game. I'm not transactional. It's building relationships. It's paying it forward.
00:30:36:23 - 00:30:45:15
Jason
Yeah, exactly. Brooke, this has been a great conversation. Unfortunately, it's time for us to wrap up. If somebody wants to connect with you, how do they best find you?
00:30:45:17 - 00:30:54:07
Brooke
The best way to find me is on LinkedIn, under Brett Kruger. And then my website is, WW of UK partners.com.
00:30:54:09 - 00:31:03:10
Jason
And as we're wrapping up, give us a quick elevator, summary of, of your business and I'm curious how you came with the name Casey Partners.
00:31:03:13 - 00:31:33:23
Brooke
Okay. Great. Well, the Casey partner, so I am from Kansas City. I live in, San Francisco Bay area now. I live in Marin County, just outside the city. But I'm from Kansas City, and so Casey Partners is a, a tribute to my hometown. Go Chiefs and, how I got into the business. As I mentioned, I worked in PR on the agency side for six years, and I loved a lot of parts about PR and and a lot of things the client service, the new business, the connecting with people.
00:31:33:23 - 00:31:57:29
Brooke
But I, decided I wanted to pivot into recruiting and kind of found my calling. And I started Casey Partners in 2009. We focus on communication search. We work with agencies, corporations, startups and, VC firms. I would say our sweet spot is pre to post IPO high growth companies. I do a lot of work in the tech sector being from the Bay area, but we work across all industries across the U.S..
00:31:58:02 - 00:32:14:08
Jason
Wonderful, wonderful. Well, Brooke, I'm really glad you came on today. I think you shared your smarts with our audience, which they really appreciate. And, this ever changing employment environment is is never a dull moment. In my experience. And, excited that you could share some of that with our audience today.
00:32:14:10 - 00:32:16:02
Brooke
Absolutely. Thank you for including me.
00:32:16:04 - 00:32:34:28
Jason
Yeah, you're very welcome. So with that, that's another episode of your favorite podcast, I hope, on top of PR. And our job here is to help you stay on top of PR. I think we did that by talking about employment trends and, what you need to be looking for in the marketplace, whether you're in the market for a new position or if you are actively looking to increase your headcount or your team size. If there’s ever anything we can do for you, please let us know. Otherwise, thank you for tuning in.
00:32:34:28 - 00:33:30:19
Announcer
This has been on top of PR with Jason Mud presented by Review Mixer. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode and check out Paso's ad on top of pr.com.
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About your host Jason Mudd
On Top of PR host, Jason Mudd, is a trusted adviser and dynamic strategist for some of America’s most admired brands and fastest-growing companies. Since 1994, he’s worked with American Airlines, Budweiser, Dave & Buster’s, H&R Block, Hilton, HP, Miller Lite, New York Life, Pizza Hut, Southern Comfort, and Verizon. He founded Axia Public Relations in July 2002. Forbes named Axia as one of America’s Best PR Agencies.
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